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today we welcome dr. Bernardo Kastrup -

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skeptic Oh Bernardo is quite an amazing

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guy you may have heard him on skeptic Oh

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before one of my favorite guests who has

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become a leading voice in this ongoing

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philosophical and scientific debate over

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the nature of consciousness and this is

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one of the things that I hope we're

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gonna talk about maybe from the ground

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up with Bernardo and retrace some of the

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the questions that come before all the

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cool inside baseball stuff we love to

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talk about but the other thing I wanted

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to just do is wave an introduction of

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Bernardo and actually while I do that

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when we pull up some of his great books

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here and he kind of said you know don't

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worry about the books but I have to kind

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of bring up there all the fantastic

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books that he's written about

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consciousness but one of the things I

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think is really terrific about Bernardo

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is as you'll hear he's someone who's

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grounded in the common sense of someone

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who has a real job which he does and in

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this case Bernardo has a very serious

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senior position with the distinguished

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global high tech company so I think

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that's something that really comes

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through in Barnardo's work is that he's

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a real guy in the real world at a very

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high level not somebody who's

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pontificating from academic chair that

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doesn't really interact with anyone

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other than 18 to 21 year olds so but of

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a reintroduction Bernardo welcome back

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to skeptic oh thanks so much for joining

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me thanks for having me always great to

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talk to you always great to be here so

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what's going on with you we were talking

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a little bit but we're going to talk

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about a lot of great stuff but give

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people a little bit more of a sense of

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your background who you are what's going

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on with you and do talk about these

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books one more time

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it's a lot going on I mean I still that

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job you you you alluded to still working

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in the corporate world it's been quite

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some years now it does ground me I mean

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you you you've mentioned it as a half

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joke but it does ground me in reality

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you know in the corporate people are

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sort of trained not to deceive

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themselves and to reject nonsense and

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that is helpful next to that a lot going

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on in philosophy a lot a lot going on

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around my articles my books you know

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events happening to the point that you

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asked me earlier how are you doing I

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couldn't even answer I don't know how

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I'm doing I mean I'm just going through

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the motions going through you know the

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hurricane that is that is below in this

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year will be a special year there's a

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lot coming this year in terms of more

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articles a new book lots of events more

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media attention and I have had before

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even mainstream which is sort of bit of

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a surprise to me to some extent and I

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don't know where it's going to end up

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I'm just going with the flow and we see

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where it's going to end up well let's

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talk a little bit about the media

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attention one place that people might

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have seen you pop up recently is this

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very excellent article that you wrote

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for a Scientific American

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got a lot of tread a lot of traction a

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lot of people heard about it there's

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also of course your a blog that many of

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us are familiar with metaphysical

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speculations but do tell us you've kind

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of hinted at it what's coming up in the

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near term for you that we should be

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looking for by the time this episode

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comes out probably everybody will know

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it already there will be another

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Scientific American article coming

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the third one and it goes much further

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than the previous and two articles I was

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surprised that as I am actually decided

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to publish what's coming now because

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it's a direct argument for this notion

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that that a consciousness is at the root

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the basis of reality

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an argument based on physics it took

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them four months to to decide to publish

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it but I heard the news last week that

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they wanted to publish it so that's one

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thing over the past year I have

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published several academic papers in

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academic journals which was an

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experiment something new I always tried

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to speak directly to the public and for

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the last 18 months or so I've been

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trying to also speak to academia and

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mixed results sometimes what I have to

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say is welcome sometimes it is attacked

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in in ways that are not always fair but

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all you know the experience has been

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gratifying because you know grudgingly

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or not they did publish so far 11 of my

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articles and hopefully there would be

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article 12 coming coming coming up soon

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well I think the real indication of your

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impact is that you're certainly not

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being ignored that I am NOT No No maybe

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I'm being ignored by you know the

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highest years of the media industry I

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haven't reached those levels yet I'm not

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even sure if I'd want to be there ever

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but at the level where I'm playing and

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I'm not ignored

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well that's great and and I think the

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impact that you've had is really

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significant in trying to kind of

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understand what is going on on a number

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of different levels and I told you at

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the beginning that I have somewhat of a

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new format for this skeptical episode

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and for future skeptical episodes to

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come because I've always had in mind

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this idea of threading these discussions

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you know and introducing you to other

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guests that I have on the show and then

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having a threaded debate discussion

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along some well-defined ideas and in

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this case and I shared a little bit

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about this with you but it's this

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kind of idea that I've been kicking

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around for a while it's become kind of

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the skeptical process and that's this

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idea that we follow the data we use

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science we use sound logic your case

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philosophy the way that you constructed

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of course is extremely rigorous

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extremely logical intellectual so follow

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the data and then kind of the one that

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throws a lot of people for a loop and

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we'll have some fun talking about this

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but it's become part of my process and

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that's look for the conspiracy there's

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always people out there that are trying

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to throw us off the trail and to me that

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is the conspiracy and then finally find

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the deep spirituality we have had you

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and I in the past have had some

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wonderful discussions about where all

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this stuff leads ultimately and I think

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in the broadest sense it leads to

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something approaching what we would call

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spirituality somewhat of a defining of

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who we are why we're here what is the

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meaning behind all this so I appreciate

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you playing along with me a little bit

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as we go on this journey and this is

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what I thought we would we would talk

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about so you know where I thought we

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would begin with this and it's something

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that I think so many times when you and

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I talk we maybe rush over this in a way

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that leaves a lot of people just kind of

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out in the cold from the very beginning

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and that's this idea of what is

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consciousness and I want to be very

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careful I want to see if we can define

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consciousness as like you know doing

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something with your blindfolded and one

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arm tied behind your back so without

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using the term materialism or idealism

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pants like isn't any of those but

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without being too simple-minded about it

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what are we talking about when we talk

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about consciousness what is

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consciousness to the average person

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who's intellectually oriented but maybe

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is a little bit fuzzy about what the

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debate is

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all this consciousness is that which

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experiences is the ground of experience

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is that whose excitations are the

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experiences of daily life if we weren't

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conscious we would experience nothing

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there would be nothing to talk about

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there would be no emotions there would

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be no perceptions there would be no blue

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and reds there would be no regret

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disappointment happiness the warmth of

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love none of that would would exist

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because all of these are experiences or

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excitations of consciousness so to say

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so as far as we can know for sure

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consciousness is all there is it is the

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compass of life you know the way I

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sometimes put it and I this is I put it

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in the book that I wrote is that it's an

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oversimplification but nonetheless it's

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the voice inside your head it's the

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voice inside your head that listens

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because the problem with consciousness

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as we talked about it of course is that

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if consciousness is everything like you

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said then if it is fundamental like

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you're alluding to but all of a sudden

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we're throwing people off a little bit

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then we could never really get it so you

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know a simple test I always say is say

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hello silently in your head and what

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heard that hello is consciousness

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consciousness is always there always

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present for the voice inside your head

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and everything that's going on now you

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can tear that apart philosophically and

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in a number of ways but I I always felt

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like that little simple experiment that

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anyone can do can at least get us to

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that first step of realizing there is

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something more there's something to talk

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about here because of course the real

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challenge in all this is what does

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science have to say about what

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consciousness is and I have for you a

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clip it's gonna be so fun to play I

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really can't wait I'm so excited to play

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you this clip

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well I want to play this clip from you

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from some very very esteemed mainstream

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scientists and I want to make it clear

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that this is a clip from these people

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will be recognized by you know people in

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my community as skeptics or as you know

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materialists but I think we have to

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acknowledge as you were talking about

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you know at the very beginning in terms

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of where you're going and in terms of

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mainstream acceptance these people are

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just generally regarded as scientists as

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the mainstream scientists so we're

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talking about Richard Dawkins Lawrence

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Krauss Neil deGrasse Tyson I mean Neil

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deGrasse Tyson whether we like it or not

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is the face of science for many many

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many Americans so let's see what

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mainstream science has to say about

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consciousness here we go I'm gonna play

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this clip you can see it there I'm gonna

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play it don't you but you can say

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something about the question which you

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really would wish to know the answer to

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and I mean for me it would be what what

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consciousness because that's that's

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totally baffling not that you asked but

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what I think on this is consciousness

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has kind of baffled us for a while okay

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and evidence that we haven't a clue

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about what consciousness is is drawn

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from the from the fact of how many books

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are published on the topic right we're

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not really continuing to publish books

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not really on like Newtonian physics

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it's done all right

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so so the fact that people keep

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publishing books on consciousness is the

275
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evidence we don't know anything about it

276
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because if we knew all about it

277
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you wouldn't have to keep publishing so

278
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so what I wonder

279
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what I wonder Richard is whether there

280
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really is no such thing as consciousness

281
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at all and that there's some other

282
00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:08,950
understanding of the functioning of the

283
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human brain that renders that question

284
00:13:26,530 --> 00:13:16,430
obsolete to that I gotta say like oh wow

285
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okay what is so funny about that of

286
00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:42,080
course that last voice was Bill Nye the

287
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Science Guy what he was a Spanish that

288
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,450
bill was astonished I mean the idea that

289
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maybe consciousness is not there it's

290
00:14:02,470 --> 00:13:59,120
probably the weirdest stupidest idea

291
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:02,480
ever conceived by human thought I mean

292
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where does thought take place it takes

293
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place in consciousness so here we have

294
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consciousness speculating about the

295
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possibility that consciousness does not

296
00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:16,640
exist and it may not be there I mean the

297
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very thought is that in your face

298
00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:21,440
contradiction and the fact that

299
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something like this is not only

300
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:24,890
seriously entertained but even

301
00:14:31,690 --> 00:14:28,490
verbalized by a person with the public

302
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:31,700
exposure of the gentleman we just saw is

303
00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:37,610
is a worrying sign of cultural thickness

304
00:14:43,420 --> 00:14:41,720
a very serious one you know the other

305
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:43,430
thing that got me and I hope you just

306
00:14:49,090 --> 00:14:46,250
comment on because you are a philosopher

307
00:14:51,780 --> 00:14:49,100
and an expert in logic and you've your

308
00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:51,790
books you do a wonderful job of

309
00:14:57,850 --> 00:14:54,350
deconstructing this silliness down to a

310
00:15:13,300 --> 00:14:57,860
level that is extremely comprehensive

311
00:15:14,620 --> 00:15:13,310
and well-thought-out physics and he's

312
00:15:16,090 --> 00:15:14,630
saying no to any of this I mean I think

313
00:15:17,860 --> 00:15:16,100
first of all books

314
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:17,870
you mean papers don't you need

315
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:19,610
peer-reviewed published papers and

316
00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:21,410
aren't they doing a lot of work I'm

317
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:24,680
gravity and you know issues in physics

318
00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:31,070
that are central preposterous just again

319
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:34,190
it's just really really funny but to his

320
00:15:39,550 --> 00:15:37,250
credit he did say the laws in Newtonian

321
00:15:42,190 --> 00:15:39,560
laws so classic own

322
00:15:44,019 --> 00:15:42,200
dony physics but but given that given

323
00:15:47,290 --> 00:15:44,029
that I mean this is I guess kind of

324
00:15:50,019 --> 00:15:47,300
interesting in that we build on these

325
00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:50,029
laws right so no one has said that the

326
00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:51,880
laws of Newtonian physics are

327
00:15:56,410 --> 00:15:53,900
quote-unquote wrong they're just

328
00:15:59,050 --> 00:15:56,420
incomplete they just describe a certain

329
00:16:01,660 --> 00:15:59,060
aspect of what we observe and the same

330
00:16:05,079 --> 00:16:01,670
could be said for this insistence that

331
00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:05,089
consciousness is physical biological a

332
00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:06,260
brain-based

333
00:16:12,910 --> 00:16:09,800
all those things are not wrong per se

334
00:16:14,620 --> 00:16:12,920
they're just incomplete in terms of our

335
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:14,630
understanding of consciousness if

336
00:16:19,630 --> 00:16:16,450
consciousness is as we'll talk about

337
00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:19,640
somehow fundamental then everything gets

338
00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:21,230
turned on its head but that doesn't mean

339
00:16:25,870 --> 00:16:23,390
that there aren't some neural correlates

340
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:25,880
to consciousness and ground function so

341
00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:28,250
that's where I think it's it's just it

342
00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:32,060
just shows a deep misunderstanding I

343
00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:35,510
guess would be generous or of of what

344
00:16:38,890 --> 00:16:36,980
they're really talking about when he

345
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:38,900
talks about conscious I think I think

346
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:41,210
what motivates even the question because

347
00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:43,610
you see how they how they formulated the

348
00:16:49,090 --> 00:16:45,740
question how Richard Dawkins formulated

349
00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:49,100
the question he said what is

350
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:52,580
consciousness and what they're trying to

351
00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:55,490
get at is a reduction what you're trying

352
00:17:01,210 --> 00:16:58,130
to answer the form of the answer they

353
00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:01,220
are looking for is consciousness is just

354
00:17:06,610 --> 00:17:04,040
this doesn't that operate in this that

355
00:17:07,870 --> 00:17:06,620
way under this and that condition in

356
00:17:09,910 --> 00:17:07,880
other words they're trying to explain

357
00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:09,920
consciousness in terms of something else

358
00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:12,130
in terms of something that isn't

359
00:17:17,699 --> 00:17:14,839
consciousness that would be the answer

360
00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:17,709
to the question what is consciousness

361
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:21,230
and and that is indeed a baffling

362
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:24,410
question because you see who is trying

363
00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:27,410
to answer it is consciousness that is

364
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:29,750
trying to answer so you get a self

365
00:17:35,530 --> 00:17:32,690
reference there that makes the question

366
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:35,540
indeed very baffling if you are framing

367
00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:37,490
it that way if you're trying to reduce

368
00:17:42,220 --> 00:17:39,350
consciousness and that's why it goes

369
00:17:44,919 --> 00:17:42,230
wrong nobody well very few people have

370
00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:44,929
stopped to think that maybe we shouldn't

371
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:47,150
formulate the question that way maybe

372
00:17:52,450 --> 00:17:49,850
what we have to ask is how can we

373
00:17:55,210 --> 00:17:52,460
explain everything else in turn

374
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:55,220
of consciousness which is the given of

375
00:18:00,820 --> 00:17:58,010
reality it's the the basis of knowledge

376
00:18:03,790 --> 00:18:00,830
it's that within which we know and

377
00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:03,800
inquire you know and I'd almost suggest

378
00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:08,830
that that's step two step one is to

379
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:12,380
properly frame the borderline between

380
00:18:18,490 --> 00:18:16,160
science and philosophy which is again

381
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:18,500
something you just wonderfully do and

382
00:18:25,030 --> 00:18:22,690
will give people a sense for how you

383
00:18:27,970 --> 00:18:25,040
process this stuff in your book so let

384
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:27,980
me share a quote and if you would be so

385
00:18:34,690 --> 00:18:32,240
kind as to read this for us a quote from

386
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:34,700
one of your books do you want to take a

387
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:36,290
minute and look better and see if it's

388
00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:38,810
okay to read that yep capturing

389
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:40,940
observable patterns and regularities of

390
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:43,910
of elements of reality relative to each

391
00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:46,160
other is an empirical and scientific

392
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:48,440
question with pondering the fundamental

393
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:50,710
nature of these elements is not it is

394
00:18:57,540 --> 00:18:54,710
philosophical question this is not mine

395
00:19:02,950 --> 00:18:57,550
and this this this is a realization that

396
00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:02,960
I mean Russell said something like that

397
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:05,180
over a hundred years ago that this is

398
00:19:11,770 --> 00:19:06,770
well known it's not something that that

399
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:11,780
I came up with is quintessentially yours

400
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:13,670
I don't care if somebody said it a

401
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:16,610
hundred years ago you have five books

402
00:19:22,540 --> 00:19:19,810
that's so eloquently deconstruct it and

403
00:19:25,180 --> 00:19:22,550
reintroduce it to the discussion that is

404
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:25,190
ongoing that these nitwits like we just

405
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:28,250
saw are fumbling over that I think it is

406
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:30,710
completely yours I don't care who else

407
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:33,410
but please tell us tell us about that

408
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:36,530
divide between what why science can't

409
00:19:43,330 --> 00:19:37,360
reach that

410
00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:43,340
well the scientific method is largely an

411
00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:44,870
empirical method it's based on

412
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:47,060
observation and when will you observe

413
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:49,370
nature what we are observing is the

414
00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:52,450
behavior of nature when we see a

415
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:54,800
billiard ball hit another that's the

416
00:20:01,240 --> 00:19:57,410
behavior of matter and what science then

417
00:20:03,490 --> 00:20:01,250
does it analyzes these observations and

418
00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:03,500
tries to extract the patterns and

419
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:06,060
regularities of the behavior of physical

420
00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:08,400
nature as it presents itself on the

421
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:10,230
screen of perception conscious

422
00:20:16,490 --> 00:20:13,290
perception so at the end we end up with

423
00:20:18,170 --> 00:20:16,500
predictive models of nature's behavior

424
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:18,180
we know that we if we put things

425
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:19,770
together this and that way we will get

426
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:22,110
this and that effect and these

427
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:23,970
predictive models are at the heart of

428
00:20:28,610 --> 00:20:26,610
technology where we use these models to

429
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:28,620
develop technology because we know how

430
00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:30,480
nature behaves and then we can put that

431
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:35,160
behavior to use to our advantage and and

432
00:20:41,030 --> 00:20:37,440
because of the success of Technology

433
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:41,040
science has acquired enormous cachet in

434
00:20:45,290 --> 00:20:43,050
our culture as they in a blur of the

435
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:45,300
technologies that extend and improve our

436
00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:48,060
lives and this is all fair enough but

437
00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:51,660
science says nothing about the intrinsic

438
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:55,680
nature of the physical it only analyzes

439
00:21:00,050 --> 00:20:58,290
behavior in differential terms in terms

440
00:21:02,390 --> 00:21:00,060
of patterns of differences bare

441
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:02,400
differences for instance what is in a

442
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:05,010
positive electric charge it is that

443
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:07,230
which is not a negative electric charge

444
00:21:10,610 --> 00:21:09,690
because behaves in a symmetrical

445
00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:10,620
opposite way

446
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:12,840
that's all science does but what is a

447
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:15,570
charge intrinsically what is the nature

448
00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:17,910
of a charge science has nothing to say

449
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:20,160
about it it's fundamentally outside the

450
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:22,890
scope of the scientific method the

451
00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:26,250
intrinsic nature of being of existence

452
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:28,380
is a question of ontology a question of

453
00:21:34,250 --> 00:21:31,650
philosophy which has a broader less

454
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:34,260
precise but a broader method that's not

455
00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:36,510
based only on perceptual observation

456
00:21:40,790 --> 00:21:39,060
it's based on logic also based on

457
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:40,800
empirical consistency it's based on

458
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:44,580
certain values like parsimony and you

459
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:45,990
try to make sense of things with the

460
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:48,720
least number of postulates then it

461
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:50,570
requires a certain way of thinking and a

462
00:21:56,150 --> 00:21:53,370
basic level of acquaintance with the

463
00:21:59,630 --> 00:21:56,160
literature that lots of scientists don't

464
00:22:01,520 --> 00:21:59,640
have some do have but lots of them

465
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:01,530
especially the very vocal ones on a

466
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:04,080
media a lot of them don't have they that

467
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:06,210
they don't even they are not even aware

468
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:09,510
of this fundamental distinction so they

469
00:22:13,580 --> 00:22:11,250
ended they end up thinking that science

470
00:22:15,410 --> 00:22:13,590
itself is a philosophy why it has

471
00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:15,420
nothing to say about the intrinsic

472
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:17,940
nature of things and then they spill out

473
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:19,090
no

474
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:22,050
sense [\h__\h] if you forgive my English

475
00:22:28,410 --> 00:22:24,880
some of these gentlemen we just saw on

476
00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:28,420
that video are guilty of this of being

477
00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:30,670
very ignorant of the issues of

478
00:22:35,610 --> 00:22:33,160
philosophy and then doing sill dough so

479
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:35,620
the philosophy you know what I think is

480
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:37,570
particularly relevant in this case is

481
00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:41,410
that we have a growing body and it's

482
00:22:46,250 --> 00:22:43,000
been growing for the last hundred years

483
00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:46,260
ever since our quantum physics really

484
00:22:49,950 --> 00:22:48,670
ran up against the problem of

485
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:49,960
consciousness the question of

486
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:53,520
consciousness and that's that the idea

487
00:22:59,250 --> 00:22:56,050
that consciousness is somehow

488
00:23:01,710 --> 00:22:59,260
fundamental that everything is arising

489
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:01,720
out of consciousness rather than

490
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:05,890
everything can be reduced to what how

491
00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:08,410
consciousness is being produced given

492
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:11,520
that that's a valid reasonable

493
00:23:18,290 --> 00:23:14,410
alternative philosophical philosophical

494
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:18,300
outlook it makes it particularly

495
00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:21,730
troublesome to not understand those

496
00:23:26,610 --> 00:23:23,800
differences you know if it was just some

497
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:26,620
wacky philosophical idea that would be

498
00:23:30,510 --> 00:23:27,970
one thing but the idea that

499
00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:30,520
consciousness is fundamental and we

500
00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:36,360
therefore can't get there from here is

501
00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:38,800
if you get what I mean is it

502
00:23:43,470 --> 00:23:42,100
particularly troubling I I I'm totally

503
00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:43,480
with you

504
00:23:49,230 --> 00:23:46,750
science historically has grown around

505
00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:49,240
this has been developed around this idea

506
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:51,190
of separation between subject and object

507
00:23:55,650 --> 00:23:53,410
and the materialism enforces that

508
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,660
separation very dramatically because the

509
00:23:59,760 --> 00:23:57,520
subject is something generated by your

510
00:24:01,340 --> 00:23:59,770
nervous system inside your skull and the

511
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:01,350
objects are out there and they have

512
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:03,730
there's a major ontological distinction

513
00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:07,810
between these two things that allows

514
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:10,900
science to feel or at least scientists

515
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:14,170
to feel grounded in in this separation

516
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:16,750
in order to be neutral observers of

517
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:18,880
nature and the moment you say well but

518
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:22,980
everything is mind then there is no

519
00:24:28,050 --> 00:24:25,930
insulator between the mind of the

520
00:24:30,810 --> 00:24:28,060
observer and what is observed because

521
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:30,820
it's all mind anyway and it becomes

522
00:24:36,460 --> 00:24:32,690
difficult for many

523
00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:36,470
scientists to make sense of their role

524
00:24:41,710 --> 00:24:39,470
as observers if it is all mind anyway

525
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:41,720
and it's very counterintuitive to them

526
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:45,170
ultimately there is no problem behind it

527
00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:47,840
at all this notion that consciousness is

528
00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:49,460
fundamental that the world out there is

529
00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:51,350
also fundamentally in consciousness

530
00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:54,350
there is not contradict the neutrality

531
00:24:58,630 --> 00:24:56,510
of the observer under certain conditions

532
00:25:01,630 --> 00:24:58,640
and other conditions it does because we

533
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:01,640
know that experimentally but because

534
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:04,490
they are not fluent with the issues at

535
00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:06,710
hand they misinterpret misunderstand it

536
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:08,990
feel threatened by it and reject it

537
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:12,080
ultimately so that really does I think

538
00:25:17,410 --> 00:25:15,290
maybe get to the heart of this dilemma

539
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:17,420
and this challenge that we're facing of

540
00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:19,430
the original question you know what is

541
00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:21,590
consciousness and I think when people

542
00:25:26,020 --> 00:25:23,270
fly into this thing and they're going

543
00:25:28,810 --> 00:25:26,030
like well what's the debate maybe now

544
00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:28,820
they have a grounding for how difficult

545
00:25:34,270 --> 00:25:31,670
it is for science to come off of a

546
00:25:38,020 --> 00:25:34,280
position that when it's really exposed

547
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:38,030
is it just doesn't add up

548
00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:40,810
it's very exposed in terms of being

549
00:25:46,330 --> 00:25:43,160
intellectually sound philosophically

550
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:46,340
sound the idea it just isn't doesn't

551
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:48,290
hold water very well as we explored so

552
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:50,810
many times on this show now let me kind

553
00:25:54,510 --> 00:25:51,890
of switch gears for a minute here

554
00:25:58,930 --> 00:25:54,520
because one of the things that I did in

555
00:26:01,330 --> 00:25:58,940
preparation for this show was go to my

556
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:01,340
very excellent and I mean that in all

557
00:26:07,330 --> 00:26:05,330
sincerity skeptic oh community folks at

558
00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:07,340
the skeptical forum I put up a post and

559
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:09,560
I said hey I need your help

560
00:26:13,420 --> 00:26:11,450
I have this interview with Bernardo and

561
00:26:16,330 --> 00:26:13,430
I got a fantastic response I have to

562
00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:16,340
tell everyone your answers and responses

563
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:19,550
were terrific so many of them have been

564
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:22,370
incorporated into these ideas I hope you

565
00:26:28,050 --> 00:26:25,130
hear them as this interview flows I

566
00:26:31,330 --> 00:26:28,060
couldn't use them all but there is one

567
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:31,340
post that I wanted to pull out because I

568
00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:34,400
thought it really got to some of the

569
00:26:39,670 --> 00:26:37,340
deeper inside baseball kind of stuff

570
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:39,680
that we like to talk about you and I

571
00:26:43,390 --> 00:26:41,450
like to talk about and I thought it

572
00:26:46,659 --> 00:26:43,400
could kind of propel us into that deeper

573
00:26:50,529 --> 00:26:46,669
discussion of the conspiracy

574
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:50,539
deep spirituality angle of it so deep

575
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:54,559
Eden South wrote while it for a question

576
00:27:00,129 --> 00:26:58,129
for Bernardo while I do love full-blown

577
00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:00,139
idealism I think we know what he means

578
00:27:07,389 --> 00:27:03,289
it does fail to get to grips with the

579
00:27:11,259 --> 00:27:07,399
whole range of unusual human experience

580
00:27:16,419 --> 00:27:11,269
ie experience its spirits aliens in the

581
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:16,429
east reincarnation etc let's talk about

582
00:27:22,450 --> 00:27:17,840
that for a minute

583
00:27:25,659 --> 00:27:22,460
because I do know where he's coming from

584
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:25,669
it's one thing to say that consciousness

585
00:27:33,310 --> 00:27:29,600
is fundamental it's another thing to say

586
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:33,320
ok what does that mean for these

587
00:27:39,789 --> 00:27:35,690
extended consciousness realms that we

588
00:27:44,619 --> 00:27:39,799
keep bumping into and how do though how

589
00:27:47,139 --> 00:27:44,629
does that ontological shift allow us to

590
00:27:50,619 --> 00:27:47,149
better explain what we seem to be

591
00:27:52,989 --> 00:27:50,629
observing there I will answer this

592
00:27:54,190 --> 00:27:52,999
directly but can you give me like 10

593
00:27:56,499 --> 00:27:54,200
seconds just to make an observation

594
00:28:00,840 --> 00:27:56,509
before I sink my teeth into the question

595
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:00,850
I think you know before we even get to

596
00:28:06,190 --> 00:28:03,679
extraordinary experiences and and and

597
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:06,200
the paranormal there is a challenge here

598
00:28:12,009 --> 00:28:09,129
to explain to normal the ordinary

599
00:28:14,830 --> 00:28:12,019
because the ordinary in the normal are

600
00:28:17,619 --> 00:28:14,840
not explained under mainstream physical

601
00:28:21,669 --> 00:28:17,629
is more mainstream materialism there is

602
00:28:24,609 --> 00:28:21,679
no explanation for why we feel the

603
00:28:27,129 --> 00:28:24,619
qualities of experience why we see red

604
00:28:29,139 --> 00:28:27,139
why we feel warmth why we feel

605
00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:29,149
disappointment there is nothing about

606
00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:34,190
mass momentum a charged spin in terms of

607
00:28:38,529 --> 00:28:36,289
which we could deduce phenomenal

608
00:28:40,210 --> 00:28:38,539
properties what we experience in

609
00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:40,220
consciousness so there is an enormous

610
00:28:46,779 --> 00:28:43,190
gap for explaining the normal that's why

611
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:46,789
I focus on the normal since the

612
00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:49,279
paranormal is the next step we haven't

613
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:52,700
explained even a normal yet I totally

614
00:28:56,349 --> 00:28:55,039
I'm totally with you up to the last part

615
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:56,359
that you said I'd might take issue with

616
00:29:00,550 --> 00:28:58,399
that but I take it one step further and

617
00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:00,560
and point out something like memory

618
00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:02,750
because you know we really don't

619
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:04,670
understand memory right we don't

620
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:06,890
understand what's going on and memory is

621
00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:09,590
a tricky one because it's one that all

622
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:14,900
the neurology folks all the mind equals

623
00:29:19,270 --> 00:29:17,330
brain materialistic sciences that no no

624
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:19,280
we we really have a handle on memory we

625
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:20,690
just need to drill down a little bit

626
00:29:26,830 --> 00:29:25,490
further so if you can speak to memory

627
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:26,840
being another one so yeah we don't

628
00:29:30,550 --> 00:29:29,450
understand how we experience read or how

629
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:30,560
we experience love

630
00:29:33,790 --> 00:29:32,510
but even this thing that memory they

631
00:29:36,010 --> 00:29:33,800
think they have nailed but they don't

632
00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:36,020
understand if you look at the literature

633
00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:38,870
coming out claiming to explain memory

634
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:42,200
it's all self contradictory some explain

635
00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:43,970
memory in terms of you know large

636
00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:46,910
networks of neurons others explain

637
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:49,430
memory try to explain memory in terms of

638
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,610
intra neuron processes things are all

639
00:29:55,660 --> 00:29:54,320
over the place I can mention one

640
00:29:57,610 --> 00:29:55,670
concrete example there was a study

641
00:30:00,300 --> 00:29:57,620
published a couple of years ago claiming

642
00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:00,310
to have found the key to memory based on

643
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:04,760
experiments with mice they expose the

644
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,650
mice to a certain experience in one

645
00:30:11,770 --> 00:30:08,720
environment they moved the my store not

646
00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:11,780
in the mouse and other environment and

647
00:30:16,390 --> 00:30:15,500
then the mouse with it would trigger

648
00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:16,400
they would trigger that memory

649
00:30:20,890 --> 00:30:18,230
artificially and the mouse would behave

650
00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:20,900
as if it was as if it were in the first

651
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:22,750
environment and then oh we figured out

652
00:30:28,090 --> 00:30:26,330
how to how memories are created and if

653
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:28,100
you go through the details what they did

654
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:31,910
was they grew some cellular switches in

655
00:30:38,530 --> 00:30:35,600
the brain of the mice that they could

656
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:38,540
then identify which neurons fired up

657
00:30:43,570 --> 00:30:40,850
when the mouse was exposed to a first

658
00:30:45,250 --> 00:30:43,580
experience in environment a so they had

659
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:45,260
the map of all the neurons that

660
00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:47,930
activated at that moment in environment

661
00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:50,060
a and they moved the mouse to

662
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:52,040
environment B and with a specific

663
00:30:56,650 --> 00:30:54,080
technique using light they could

664
00:30:58,750 --> 00:30:56,660
artificially reactivate the same neurons

665
00:31:01,240 --> 00:30:58,760
as the mouse was an environment B and

666
00:31:05,230 --> 00:31:01,250
guess what the mouse behaved as if it

667
00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:05,240
were in environment a now who recorded

668
00:31:11,260 --> 00:31:08,390
and recalled the memory the scientists

669
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:11,270
through this cellular techniques as

670
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:13,610
through exposing the neurons to light

671
00:31:16,030 --> 00:31:14,450
creating

672
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:16,040
cellular switches in the neurons and

673
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:17,810
recording which neurons were activated

674
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,370
in the first situation and then

675
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:21,200
reactivating them artificially in the

676
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:23,270
second situation that doesn't show at

677
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:25,370
all how memory works to show how memory

678
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,070
works we would have to figure out where

679
00:31:33,130 --> 00:31:30,080
the mouse stores the pattern of

680
00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:33,140
activated neurons without these

681
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:36,020
artificial cellular switches and an

682
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:38,960
exposure to light the scientists created

683
00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:41,570
so what you see being claimed in the

684
00:31:47,290 --> 00:31:43,280
science press about we having understood

685
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:47,300
memory it's it's extremely exaggerated

686
00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:50,960
we we don't understand memory and let's

687
00:31:57,220 --> 00:31:54,430
give four people maybe a counter

688
00:32:00,220 --> 00:31:57,230
potential explanation for how that might

689
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:00,230
work and it could also relate to if

690
00:32:04,540 --> 00:32:02,210
anyone is familiar with epigenetics

691
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:04,550
which in the similar way kind of blows

692
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:09,730
all this craziness about brain based

693
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:11,690
consciousness and consciousness being

694
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:15,140
100% brain based our modern

695
00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:16,820
understanding of epinet epigenetics

696
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:19,630
blows that away but in your mice example

697
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:22,090
you know we could take something like

698
00:32:27,670 --> 00:32:25,910
sheldricks morpho genetic fields more

699
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:27,680
for genetic fields if you wanted to and

700
00:32:33,790 --> 00:32:31,700
say there's or any other understanding

701
00:32:36,430 --> 00:32:33,800
we have of consciousness in the cloud

702
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:36,440
right and then that some certain

703
00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:39,370
patterns some certain arrangement of

704
00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:43,460
physical neurons is then able to reiax s

705
00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:47,180
that would be a potential beginning of

706
00:32:51,310 --> 00:32:49,310
an explanation am i getting kind of

707
00:32:53,410 --> 00:32:51,320
where you're coming from there but

708
00:32:55,660 --> 00:32:53,420
perhaps i don't really have a firm

709
00:32:57,220 --> 00:32:55,670
opinion on this doesn't matter there

710
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:57,230
just is some other ways that we could

711
00:33:01,090 --> 00:32:59,360
get there absolutely absolutely and you

712
00:33:09,310 --> 00:33:01,100
may have to do with the nature of time

713
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:09,320
itself but to to guess here what memory

714
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:11,570
might be out just just be speculating I

715
00:33:16,810 --> 00:33:13,210
don't really have an intelligent answer

716
00:33:19,930 --> 00:33:16,820
to that question fair enough and I think

717
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:19,940
it's important to say that that may be

718
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:21,770
one of the reasons you don't is because

719
00:33:28,660 --> 00:33:25,090
once we jump into that consciousness is

720
00:33:32,830 --> 00:33:28,670
fundamental mindset everything work

721
00:33:34,690 --> 00:33:32,840
say back about material about explaining

722
00:33:37,060 --> 00:33:34,700
this winds up being this kind of back

723
00:33:39,490 --> 00:33:37,070
door materialism as I call it where we

724
00:33:42,220 --> 00:33:39,500
wind up coming back to using some kind

725
00:33:43,330 --> 00:33:42,230
of mechanical materialist explanation

726
00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:43,340
for things that we wanted to get away

727
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:45,380
from the first place but we don't have

728
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:47,570
the language to really make that leap

729
00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:50,600
and we're confined by our language and

730
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:52,220
our shared experience to explain what's

731
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:54,410
going on so I really like that you

732
00:33:58,930 --> 00:33:56,930
pulled up in terms of not jumping to a

733
00:34:01,480 --> 00:33:58,940
definitive answer and hopefully people

734
00:34:04,270 --> 00:34:01,490
will get a sense for two things one how

735
00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:04,280
difficult it is and how hamstrung

736
00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:06,470
scientists are that's why they wind up

737
00:34:11,310 --> 00:34:08,600
saying all these silly things because

738
00:34:14,830 --> 00:34:11,320
it's hard to say anything that can't be

739
00:34:17,590 --> 00:34:14,840
contradicted once you make this paradigm

740
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:17,600
this ontological shift do you have any

741
00:34:21,399 --> 00:34:19,760
thoughts on that I wanted to make a

742
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:21,409
comment on something you said because I

743
00:34:26,980 --> 00:34:24,649
think it you were very correct once we

744
00:34:31,419 --> 00:34:26,990
are sort of addicted to a certain

745
00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:31,429
pattern of thinking that that sort of

746
00:34:35,620 --> 00:34:33,740
grows out of materialist assumptions

747
00:34:38,409 --> 00:34:35,630
it's very difficult to kick the habit

748
00:34:41,260 --> 00:34:38,419
even if you conceptually convince

749
00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:41,270
yourself that hey materialism just

750
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:43,280
doesn't cut the mustard now maybe

751
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:45,110
idealism this consciousness as

752
00:34:49,330 --> 00:34:47,330
fundamental thing maybe that's the best

753
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,340
Avenue to make sense of nature even if

754
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:51,440
you're conceptually convinced of that we

755
00:34:56,530 --> 00:34:54,320
end up falling back into old patterns of

756
00:34:58,210 --> 00:34:56,540
thinking that have been inculcated in us

757
00:35:01,390 --> 00:34:58,220
through education through the media's

758
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:01,400
and you know everywhere it's a habit

759
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:03,680
it's very difficult to to kick you have

760
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:07,130
to be very alert to your own patterns of

761
00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:09,680
thought to to to see when you're falling

762
00:35:20,860 --> 00:35:13,100
into the trap again okay so I have to

763
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:20,870
bring you back though because I do think

764
00:35:30,910 --> 00:35:26,720
the fringes offer us some clues some

765
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:30,920
insights in terms of testing our ideas

766
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:34,130
and our theories so in this case I would

767
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:35,210
take issue with you

768
00:35:41,730 --> 00:35:38,090
I think the extraordinary experiences

769
00:35:45,089 --> 00:35:41,740
the paranormal experiences

770
00:35:48,930 --> 00:35:45,099
do two things one they test the theory

771
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:48,940
at its edges but it also challenges our

772
00:35:57,319 --> 00:35:53,890
idea of what normal is I mean if there

773
00:36:00,599 --> 00:35:57,329
is an extended realm where near-death

774
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:00,609
experiencers go and people who use

775
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:03,250
psychedelics go and when they go there

776
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:06,609
they see they say et was there and he

777
00:36:13,950 --> 00:36:08,760
said why did it take you so long if

778
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:13,960
people in reincarnation scenarios either

779
00:36:18,870 --> 00:36:15,960
between lives or in past lives are

780
00:36:20,730 --> 00:36:18,880
accessing these extended consciousness

781
00:36:22,530 --> 00:36:20,740
realms which we don't understand we

782
00:36:26,220 --> 00:36:22,540
can't begin to map out we can't be map

783
00:36:28,170 --> 00:36:26,230
out our own let alone theirs then you

784
00:36:30,540 --> 00:36:28,180
know maybe there's something there that

785
00:36:32,910 --> 00:36:30,550
will add to this discussion and I also

786
00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:32,920
think the the second part of this which

787
00:36:37,890 --> 00:36:34,869
we didn't talk about is important too in

788
00:36:40,349 --> 00:36:37,900
that there are a lot of wisdom

789
00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:40,359
traditions who have told us exactly this

790
00:36:46,170 --> 00:36:42,520
and they've gone one step further and

791
00:36:50,099 --> 00:36:46,180
they've said what you need to do is kind

792
00:36:52,349 --> 00:36:50,109
of look past that don't look past don't

793
00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:52,359
look too far don't get too hung up on

794
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:55,270
the spirits the spirits the aliens the

795
00:36:59,940 --> 00:36:57,280
extended consciousness realms which are

796
00:37:03,599 --> 00:36:59,950
out there because they're just another

797
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:03,609
middle ground to someplace else that you

798
00:37:10,109 --> 00:37:06,960
want to get to which introduces a whole

799
00:37:13,470 --> 00:37:10,119
bunch of other questions about purpose

800
00:37:17,299 --> 00:37:13,480
direction why but there's a lot on the

801
00:37:22,789 --> 00:37:17,309
table there I'll go ahead and have at it

802
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:22,799
well if you look at the extraordinary

803
00:37:30,450 --> 00:37:25,839
things that are mentioning the list and

804
00:37:32,579 --> 00:37:30,460
the ease spirits I think with the

805
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:32,589
exception perhaps of aliens they all

806
00:37:38,490 --> 00:37:35,130
have one thing in common which is that

807
00:37:41,789 --> 00:37:38,500
consciousness doesn't stop upon physical

808
00:37:44,190 --> 00:37:41,799
death the death of the body and that is

809
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:44,200
something that is inherent indeed to

810
00:37:49,140 --> 00:37:46,450
idealism if consciousness is fundamental

811
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:49,150
if it's not just an epiphenomenon or

812
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:51,250
something generated or constituted by

813
00:37:54,839 --> 00:37:53,200
particular arrangements of matter in the

814
00:37:55,620 --> 00:37:54,849
form of a brain and if those

815
00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:55,630
arrangements

816
00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:57,250
dissolve the consciousness dissolves as

817
00:38:01,470 --> 00:37:58,930
well if instead consciousness is

818
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:01,480
fundamental then it cannot disappear

819
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:03,610
because it's what there is it has

820
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:05,110
nowhere to go it has nowhere to

821
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:08,220
disappear into its death out of which

822
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:11,170
everything arises so consciousness

823
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:14,770
itself cannot disappear but then the

824
00:38:20,910 --> 00:38:18,400
question becomes but what is the form of

825
00:38:22,860 --> 00:38:20,920
that consciousness because clearly my

826
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:22,870
own personal consciousness is not

827
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:24,160
all-encompassing

828
00:38:27,930 --> 00:38:26,110
and not aware of what's going on on the

829
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:27,940
other side of the galaxy I'm not aware

830
00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:30,250
even of your thoughts just across the

831
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:32,140
globe I'm not aware of what my

832
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:35,290
girlfriend's thinking downstairs and I

833
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:37,570
know what the neighbors are watching on

834
00:38:41,820 --> 00:38:40,090
television so clearly my personal

835
00:38:43,380 --> 00:38:41,830
consciousness is very restricted and yet

836
00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:43,390
I'm saying that consciousness is the

837
00:38:49,170 --> 00:38:46,270
ground of all existence so I think

838
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:49,180
what's important for people to

839
00:38:53,850 --> 00:38:50,770
understand is that idealism is not

840
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:53,860
solipsism the claim is not that all

841
00:39:00,540 --> 00:38:57,090
nature happens as my own personal dream

842
00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:00,550
the claim is that nature itself unfolds

843
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:02,320
in consciousness but consciousness is

844
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:04,930
transpersonal it extends beyond my

845
00:39:10,770 --> 00:39:08,010
personal consciousness and my or yours

846
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:10,780
personal consciousness is a dissociated

847
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:13,810
complex of universal consciousness and

848
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:16,960
if we could call it that way and if life

849
00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:20,770
is what these dissociated complexes of

850
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:23,860
universal consciousness look like what

851
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:26,050
is death death would be at the end of

852
00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:28,050
the dissociation it would be the

853
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:30,640
reintegration of what we consider to be

854
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:33,310
our personal consciousness into a

855
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:36,970
broader more basic matrix of experience

856
00:39:41,850 --> 00:39:39,070
that corresponds to the universe at

857
00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:41,860
large and in that sense what I am

858
00:39:48,750 --> 00:39:45,700
positing here does support the idea that

859
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:48,760
consciousness continues to what degree

860
00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:51,010
of dissociation it continues as it's

861
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:53,260
still personal consciousness is it's

862
00:39:58,770 --> 00:39:55,570
individualized in some form I don't know

863
00:40:00,450 --> 00:39:58,780
perhaps if it is then there is grounds

864
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:00,460
to talk about what people refer to as

865
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,510
spirits but in one way or another it

866
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:06,880
validates this idea that consciousness

867
00:40:12,190 --> 00:40:09,380
continues okay I think that

868
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:12,200
might bring us to this second part of

869
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:13,910
the process that I want yeah about the

870
00:40:18,460 --> 00:40:16,160
conspiracy thing and I want to talk

871
00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:18,470
about it I mean that word is gonna throw

872
00:40:22,270 --> 00:40:20,480
a lot of people for a loop but I want to

873
00:40:23,860 --> 00:40:22,280
talk about it in a new way that maybe

874
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:23,870
does add something to the conversation

875
00:40:29,710 --> 00:40:26,720
because the first conspiracy

876
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:29,720
I'd say surrounding consciousness is the

877
00:40:37,090 --> 00:40:34,490
God conspiracy because we got all on

878
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:37,100
those scientists you know the neil

879
00:40:43,660 --> 00:40:39,650
degrasse tyson and the rest for their

880
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:43,670
just silliness I think one of the things

881
00:40:50,260 --> 00:40:47,510
that lies behind that is they're worried

882
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:50,270
about the god thing they're worried

883
00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:52,850
about a discussion of consciousness is

884
00:40:57,610 --> 00:40:55,670
going to lead back to a discussion about

885
00:41:01,360 --> 00:40:57,620
God and you know what they're kind of

886
00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:01,370
right because ultimately it does once we

887
00:41:07,540 --> 00:41:04,550
move past the scientific materialism

888
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:07,550
that did defeat Catholicism and the

889
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:10,610
church and brought the power over to the

890
00:41:16,780 --> 00:41:14,570
science gods the move away from that to

891
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:16,790
ideal even the idealism that you're

892
00:41:25,150 --> 00:41:20,570
talking about is a move that brings up

893
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:25,160
all these questions of God again so I

894
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:28,610
have some specific questions for you

895
00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:30,890
about what you think about the God

896
00:41:35,740 --> 00:41:33,740
question whether you agree with this

897
00:41:38,020 --> 00:41:35,750
idea of the way I usually sneak it into

898
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:38,030
people is by calling it the hierarchy of

899
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:39,970
consciousness if there's a hierarchy

900
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:42,170
there's something at the top you know

901
00:41:47,830 --> 00:41:45,290
and and and then I want to understand

902
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:47,840
how you think idealism fits into that

903
00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:50,570
but what I thought would be kind of a

904
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:53,510
fun way to do it is through this

905
00:41:58,780 --> 00:41:56,570
interview that I did with the very

906
00:42:02,380 --> 00:41:58,790
excellent near-death experience

907
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:02,390
researcher dr. Jeff long who recently

908
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:06,130
wrote a book about what near-death

909
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,400
experiencers have to say about God so

910
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:13,040
I've teed up the questions but let me if

911
00:42:17,610 --> 00:42:14,690
you will go ahead and play this clip and

912
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:17,620
then we can talk about the god

913
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:19,610
conspiracy as it relates to

914
00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:21,710
consciousness

915
00:42:27,620 --> 00:42:25,080
in the book God in the afterlife you

916
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:27,630
asked during your experience did you

917
00:42:34,820 --> 00:42:30,930
encounter any specific information or

918
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:34,830
awareness that God or a Supreme Being

919
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:39,690
either does or does not exist and then

920
00:42:45,710 --> 00:42:43,440
you said you broke it down and said what

921
00:42:48,140 --> 00:42:45,720
did they believe before their experience

922
00:42:50,810 --> 00:42:48,150
and what did they believe currently as

923
00:42:52,580 --> 00:42:50,820
they're answering the survey and the

924
00:42:55,460 --> 00:42:52,590
choices you gave them where God

925
00:42:59,540 --> 00:42:55,470
definitely exists God probably exists I

926
00:43:02,750 --> 00:42:59,550
was uncertain if God exists God probably

927
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:02,760
doesn't exist or God definitely doesn't

928
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:05,520
exist what did you find out I was

929
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:07,530
astounded when I crunched the numbers on

930
00:43:13,070 --> 00:43:11,250
that I was amazed at especially among

931
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:13,080
people that encountered God the

932
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:16,260
unbelievable shift from how they would

933
00:43:20,750 --> 00:43:18,560
have responded to their thoughts about

934
00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:20,760
reality of God at the time they had

935
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:23,400
their near-death experience to later at

936
00:43:26,330 --> 00:43:24,480
the time they were sharing their

937
00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:26,340
near-death experience an average of 20

938
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:29,160
years later virtually everybody that had

939
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:30,690
a near-death experience and encountered

940
00:43:36,620 --> 00:43:33,090
God shifted to believing that God

941
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:36,630
absolutely is real and it responded to

942
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:38,490
that survey question as such and that's

943
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:40,800
not a surprise now is it they were

944
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:43,110
convinced that what they saw was really

945
00:43:49,940 --> 00:43:47,130
God God as in as with whatever evidence

946
00:43:51,950 --> 00:43:49,950
they needed with what however they

947
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:51,960
wanted to invent years to think about it

948
00:43:56,060 --> 00:43:54,180
they had plenty of time to consider is

949
00:43:59,480 --> 00:43:56,070
this really God or it's really not God

950
00:44:01,310 --> 00:43:59,490
and yet by the hundreds overwhelming

951
00:44:03,550 --> 00:44:01,320
majority of near-death experiencers that

952
00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:03,560
encounter God come away believing hey

953
00:44:09,410 --> 00:44:06,720
based on my personal experience I now

954
00:44:11,090 --> 00:44:09,420
know beyond a doubt not on faith not

955
00:44:14,090 --> 00:44:11,100
because somebody told me to believe this

956
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:14,100
but my own personal experience than God

957
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:18,810
is have we lost the last word there but

958
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:22,410
you get the idea absolutely do you want

959
00:44:28,190 --> 00:44:26,310
me to comment on that yes from a strict

960
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:28,200
philosophical perspective the word God

961
00:44:32,810 --> 00:44:30,330
is tricky because it it's not clearly

962
00:44:35,390 --> 00:44:32,820
defined I mean - do we mean the personal

963
00:44:38,450 --> 00:44:35,400
God of the Abrahamic religions is

964
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:38,460
a sort of universal ego or is it the

965
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:41,430
brahmana of Hinduism consciousness

966
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:43,440
itself but not necessarily a personal

967
00:44:48,049 --> 00:44:45,210
God so it's difficult from that

968
00:44:50,779 --> 00:44:48,059
perspective yet as you which was just

969
00:44:53,839 --> 00:44:50,789
dr. long talked about when people are

970
00:44:57,289 --> 00:44:53,849
confronted with a certain experience the

971
00:45:00,200 --> 00:44:57,299
conceptual conceptual minutiae become

972
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:00,210
unimportant they know what they mean by

973
00:45:04,970 --> 00:45:02,730
the word God at the core of it and and

974
00:45:08,180 --> 00:45:04,980
they come back and say yes God exists so

975
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:08,190
they they are losing to some core

976
00:45:14,359 --> 00:45:11,250
characteristic to some core essence that

977
00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:14,369
is always present when somebody uses the

978
00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:18,240
word God and what could that be well in

979
00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:20,760
the West we religious people tend to

980
00:45:24,620 --> 00:45:22,470
associate the word God with you know

981
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:24,630
omniscience how many presents and

982
00:45:29,180 --> 00:45:26,970
omnipotence what is omniscience it's

983
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:29,190
it's basically alludes to the presence

984
00:45:36,890 --> 00:45:32,510
of consciousness omniscience is sense

985
00:45:38,779 --> 00:45:36,900
sentience everywhere and that's an at

986
00:45:42,380 --> 00:45:38,789
the direct allusion to consciousness and

987
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:42,390
how many presence presence everywhere it

988
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:43,920
just means that consciousness is

989
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:45,930
everywhere and that that comes very

990
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:49,170
close to the idealist view that at the

991
00:45:54,829 --> 00:45:52,710
root of nature at the the highest level

992
00:45:58,519 --> 00:45:54,839
of this higher hierarchy you alluded to

993
00:46:01,430 --> 00:45:58,529
what you have is consciousness that is

994
00:46:04,190 --> 00:46:01,440
present everywhere and is aware of all

995
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:04,200
that's playing out in the universe and

996
00:46:09,079 --> 00:46:06,930
it's very easy to associate the word God

997
00:46:11,569 --> 00:46:09,089
with that in a very honest and genuine

998
00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:11,579
way fair enough

999
00:46:16,190 --> 00:46:13,710
I'm gonna pick up on that last point you

1000
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:16,200
made though because hierarchy does

1001
00:46:21,740 --> 00:46:20,700
suggest more than that and I would throw

1002
00:46:24,859 --> 00:46:21,750
out there because I've had this

1003
00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:24,869
discussion with some really great people

1004
00:46:32,329 --> 00:46:29,569
who I I respected very much in the

1005
00:46:34,339 --> 00:46:32,339
parapsychology community and in the

1006
00:46:36,109 --> 00:46:34,349
scientific community like real science

1007
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:36,119
people not like the other ones we saw we

1008
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:38,160
were talking to there and they they seem

1009
00:46:43,460 --> 00:46:40,910
to stumble over this thing too because

1010
00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:43,470
they want there to be this blob of

1011
00:46:48,790 --> 00:46:46,500
consciousness they don't want there to

1012
00:46:51,250 --> 00:46:48,800
be a shape to it

1013
00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:51,260
and the shape seems to be from all

1014
00:46:54,580 --> 00:46:53,030
accounts that I can see is there is a

1015
00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:54,590
hierarchy I mean that's what these

1016
00:46:58,860 --> 00:46:56,110
people are saying they saying they're

1017
00:47:02,260 --> 00:46:58,870
experiencing that I'm at one level and

1018
00:47:05,110 --> 00:47:02,270
there's another level I could get to and

1019
00:47:07,060 --> 00:47:05,120
there's yet another level beyond that

1020
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:07,070
and there's yet another level beyond

1021
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:10,160
that so it's difficult for us in this

1022
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:13,250
position to even presume that we could

1023
00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:16,610
map these extended consciousness realms

1024
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:18,710
but it does seem to me that that's the

1025
00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:20,810
game that's the only game we have I mean

1026
00:47:24,100 --> 00:47:22,310
we can just kind of give up and say well

1027
00:47:26,260 --> 00:47:24,110
we have the shared experience we'll

1028
00:47:29,290 --> 00:47:26,270
never know it's it but if we are gonna

1029
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:29,300
use the data that we are getting back

1030
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:31,610
that's what the data is telling me

1031
00:47:36,010 --> 00:47:33,710
Bernardo is there is a shape to it and

1032
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:36,020
the shape is hierarchy there's a moral

1033
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:38,090
imperative it's driving towards some

1034
00:47:42,910 --> 00:47:40,250
things that we think are fundamentally

1035
00:47:45,970 --> 00:47:42,920
true or not fundamentally but true

1036
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:45,980
they're just truth moral true yeah do

1037
00:47:51,850 --> 00:47:48,170
you have any thoughts on that

1038
00:47:54,130 --> 00:47:51,860
lots I think the key is to partition the

1039
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:54,140
task in such a way that by addressing

1040
00:47:59,290 --> 00:47:57,050
one part of the task we don't invalidate

1041
00:48:01,960 --> 00:47:59,300
or delete item eyes another part of the

1042
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:01,970
task that may not depend on the first

1043
00:48:08,350 --> 00:48:03,890
one and what I mean by that is the

1044
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:08,360
following we can conclude I believe very

1045
00:48:13,390 --> 00:48:11,750
firmly on the basis of of the logic of

1046
00:48:15,070 --> 00:48:13,400
the situation on the basis of the

1047
00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:15,080
empirical evidence we have that is

1048
00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:18,020
undisputed on the basis of parsimony and

1049
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:20,830
the key values of philosophical thought

1050
00:48:25,660 --> 00:48:23,810
that consciousness is fundamental and it

1051
00:48:27,730 --> 00:48:25,670
is the only fundamental thing and we can

1052
00:48:30,340 --> 00:48:27,740
conclude that irrespective of

1053
00:48:32,890 --> 00:48:30,350
discussions about hierarchy and realms

1054
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:32,900
of consciousness and all that if we have

1055
00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:37,040
that foundation established we can in

1056
00:48:42,010 --> 00:48:40,070
parallel or afterwards address the other

1057
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:42,020
problems and what are the other problems

1058
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:43,490
the other problems is that if you're

1059
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:44,810
talking about consciousness as

1060
00:48:52,060 --> 00:48:48,160
fundamental you immediately legitimize

1061
00:48:53,470 --> 00:48:52,070
first-person experience as data because

1062
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:53,480
it's consciousness we are talking about

1063
00:48:58,450 --> 00:48:55,730
so how do we how do you explore

1064
00:49:01,750 --> 00:48:58,460
consciousness through experience that's

1065
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:01,760
how you explore consciousness so I think

1066
00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:03,920
this talk about hierarchies of

1067
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:05,720
consciousness is valid

1068
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:08,090
it should not be conflated with the

1069
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:10,730
ontological question about what is the

1070
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:12,290
ontological primitive I think that can

1071
00:49:17,140 --> 00:49:14,930
be dealt with independent of it but it

1072
00:49:19,270 --> 00:49:17,150
is a valid question to talk about the

1073
00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:19,280
hierarchy of consciousness and what we

1074
00:49:25,540 --> 00:49:22,310
have to go with to discuss that are the

1075
00:49:27,580 --> 00:49:25,550
experiences people have and these

1076
00:49:29,740 --> 00:49:27,590
experiences could be spontaneous

1077
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:29,750
it could be caused by physiological

1078
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:32,450
stress like near-death experiences they

1079
00:49:38,830 --> 00:49:35,410
could be triggered by spiritual practice

1080
00:49:40,420 --> 00:49:38,840
meditation yoga prayer they could be

1081
00:49:43,210 --> 00:49:40,430
triggered by substances such as

1082
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:43,220
psychedelics as it turns out they all

1083
00:49:48,090 --> 00:49:45,290
seem to have at the high level of

1084
00:49:51,190 --> 00:49:48,100
abstraction a similar mechanism of

1085
00:49:54,460 --> 00:49:51,200
operation they all seem to imply reduced

1086
00:49:58,780 --> 00:49:54,470
activity in key areas of the brain which

1087
00:50:03,460 --> 00:49:58,790
is suggestive too and then the question

1088
00:50:06,190 --> 00:50:03,470
is how do you organize the testimonies

1089
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:06,200
of people in a way that you can extract

1090
00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:08,450
the common patterns because if you're

1091
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:10,670
dealing with first-person experience of

1092
00:50:15,090 --> 00:50:12,710
realms that are not anchored in our

1093
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:15,100
shared everyday ordinary reality

1094
00:50:21,130 --> 00:50:17,570
language breaks because language has

1095
00:50:23,590 --> 00:50:21,140
evolved around shared references I mean

1096
00:50:25,870 --> 00:50:23,600
the word rock we understand that word

1097
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:25,880
because we have all seen a rock and we

1098
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:27,440
know what it means because of that

1099
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:30,050
shared experience of seeing a rock but

1100
00:50:35,650 --> 00:50:33,290
if you're talking about a hierarchy of

1101
00:50:37,930 --> 00:50:35,660
consciousness other realms that not

1102
00:50:41,410 --> 00:50:37,940
everybody has shared not everybody has

1103
00:50:44,050 --> 00:50:41,420
had that experience then words will lack

1104
00:50:46,090 --> 00:50:44,060
that common ground that shared

1105
00:50:48,670 --> 00:50:46,100
experience that grounds them in a shared

1106
00:50:51,460 --> 00:50:48,680
dictionary so to say so people start

1107
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:51,470
talking metaphorically but when they

1108
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:53,090
talk metaphorically they use different

1109
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:54,410
metaphors because they have had

1110
00:50:58,060 --> 00:50:56,210
different education they've grown up in

1111
00:51:01,120 --> 00:50:58,070
different places different cultural

1112
00:51:02,830 --> 00:51:01,130
values different references throughout

1113
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:02,840
their lives so they pick different

1114
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:05,090
metaphors and the Challenger is how do

1115
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:07,610
you then distill the underlying

1116
00:51:11,110 --> 00:51:09,530
commonality of what they are saying

1117
00:51:13,210 --> 00:51:11,120
that's one challenge the other challenge

1118
00:51:15,490 --> 00:51:13,220
is when people get married to their

1119
00:51:16,980 --> 00:51:15,500
metaphors as if they were literal

1120
00:51:19,690 --> 00:51:16,990
and then you get into religious

1121
00:51:21,339 --> 00:51:19,700
fundamentalism and then you have these

1122
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:21,349
factions fighting against each other

1123
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:23,450
when in fact the experience that

1124
00:51:28,210 --> 00:51:26,450
underlies their philosophy it is

1125
00:51:30,849 --> 00:51:28,220
identical it's the same experience them

1126
00:51:32,849 --> 00:51:30,859
on both factions or across all the

1127
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:32,859
factions but they have been translated

1128
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:34,880
according to different metaphors that

1129
00:51:40,180 --> 00:51:37,310
people then espouse in a literal way and

1130
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:40,190
they lose sight of the commonality so

1131
00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:42,970
it's it's very challenging to do that

1132
00:51:50,410 --> 00:51:47,510
okay consciousness conspiracy number two

1133
00:51:52,990 --> 00:51:50,420
if you will and this is more I think of

1134
00:51:55,060 --> 00:51:53,000
what most people would identify as a

1135
00:51:56,740 --> 00:51:55,070
real conspiracy and I always have to tip

1136
00:51:59,740 --> 00:51:56,750
my hat to my friend Gordon white at Brin

1137
00:52:01,690 --> 00:51:59,750
soup for really pounding this drum so

1138
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:01,700
many times but it's a beautiful point

1139
00:52:08,339 --> 00:52:03,290
that really escaped me for a long time

1140
00:52:12,180 --> 00:52:08,349
and that is that if we look carefully at

1141
00:52:15,790 --> 00:52:12,190
what's coming through the disclosure

1142
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:15,800
process in terms of released documents

1143
00:52:19,410 --> 00:52:17,599
classified documents that then become

1144
00:52:24,220 --> 00:52:19,420
release coming to the public awareness

1145
00:52:27,370 --> 00:52:24,230
it's clear that the scientists who are

1146
00:52:29,950 --> 00:52:27,380
government really counts on the guys in

1147
00:52:31,930 --> 00:52:29,960
the know the guys in the deep state if

1148
00:52:34,359 --> 00:52:31,940
you will those scientists have

1149
00:52:36,849 --> 00:52:34,369
understood for the longest time that

1150
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:36,859
consciousness is non-physical that

1151
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:39,680
consciousness that materialism as we've

1152
00:52:44,380 --> 00:52:41,690
been talking about fails so they've been

1153
00:52:46,660 --> 00:52:44,390
doing MKULTRA they've been doing MK

1154
00:52:49,150 --> 00:52:46,670
often they've been talking to try to

1155
00:52:50,620 --> 00:52:49,160
talk to spirits try to conjure demons

1156
00:52:53,050 --> 00:52:50,630
let's see what we can do they've been

1157
00:52:54,730 --> 00:52:53,060
doing a Stargate where we do remote

1158
00:52:57,849 --> 00:52:54,740
viewing they've been doing everything

1159
00:53:01,120 --> 00:52:57,859
they could to look at this consciousness

1160
00:53:03,130 --> 00:53:01,130
phenomenon with the assumption that it's

1161
00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:03,140
certainly not physical it's certainly

1162
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:05,750
not Neil deGrasse Tyson it's not it no

1163
00:53:11,980 --> 00:53:08,530
books kind of thing you know they are

1164
00:53:14,290 --> 00:53:11,990
completely not at odds they're just

1165
00:53:17,260 --> 00:53:14,300
using those folks as useful idiots who

1166
00:53:19,390 --> 00:53:17,270
prop up and keep keep other people

1167
00:53:22,359 --> 00:53:19,400
entertained with these other notions so

1168
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:22,369
that's split I think is a really

1169
00:53:28,750 --> 00:53:27,050
important conspiracy to understand and

1170
00:53:30,100 --> 00:53:28,760
to push through

1171
00:53:32,830 --> 00:53:30,110
if we're really gonna understand

1172
00:53:37,930 --> 00:53:32,840
consciousness these guys these guys know

1173
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:37,940
some stuff that we don't know so I tell

1174
00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:39,920
you what I have teed up for the next one

1175
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:42,200
and this is going to kind of freak some

1176
00:53:49,630 --> 00:53:43,970
people out and maybe freak you out a

1177
00:53:52,780 --> 00:53:49,640
little bit but my go-to guy on a lot of

1178
00:53:56,740 --> 00:53:52,790
this stuff is grant Cameron who is a UFO

1179
00:53:59,440 --> 00:53:56,750
researcher and also kind of a deep state

1180
00:54:02,560 --> 00:53:59,450
political kind of researcher and he's

1181
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:02,570
pulled together in this little this

1182
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:06,110
little discussion that he had with the

1183
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:09,470
very excellent folks at Graham Erica

1184
00:54:13,630 --> 00:54:12,170
they talked about this and grant you

1185
00:54:15,790 --> 00:54:13,640
gotta what listen real carefully folks

1186
00:54:17,410 --> 00:54:15,800
cuz grant talks about as fast as anyone

1187
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:17,420
I've ever heard but there's a ton of

1188
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:19,490
stuff in here I want to put it on the

1189
00:54:25,660 --> 00:54:22,250
table and then hopefully Bernardo and I

1190
00:54:27,550 --> 00:54:25,670
can talk about it here does his wife

1191
00:54:31,290 --> 00:54:27,560
suddenly wants to talk about I'd like to

1192
00:54:34,450 --> 00:54:31,300
talk about entanglement and I'm thinking

1193
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:34,460
why would you ask us your husband is a

1194
00:54:40,750 --> 00:54:37,520
PhD in physics he's right he run the

1195
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:40,760
parapsychology the they what they called

1196
00:54:45,580 --> 00:54:43,610
a phenomenology desk at the CIA we would

1197
00:54:48,220 --> 00:54:45,590
ask where does and what people have to

1198
00:54:50,590 --> 00:54:48,230
realize is that when the CIA calls it

1199
00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:50,600
phenomenology that is a hint as to

1200
00:54:56,740 --> 00:54:52,910
what's going on it is not UFOs it's

1201
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:56,750
remote-viewing ghosts parapsychology the

1202
00:55:01,000 --> 00:54:58,880
telepathy it's the whole ball of wax

1203
00:55:02,620 --> 00:55:01,010
because it's all consciousness that's

1204
00:55:04,810 --> 00:55:02,630
the ground of being it's consciousness

1205
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:04,820
and they know that and that's why when

1206
00:55:09,310 --> 00:55:06,290
the Canadian government documents said

1207
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:09,320
in 1950 that mental phenomena may be

1208
00:55:11,860 --> 00:55:10,640
involved the top-secret Canadian

1209
00:55:13,330 --> 00:55:11,870
government doctor and said mental

1210
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:13,340
phenomena may be involved in flying

1211
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:14,960
saucers that's when they started the

1212
00:55:17,770 --> 00:55:16,640
MKULTRA stuff that's when they started

1213
00:55:19,390 --> 00:55:17,780
all that kissing trying to figure out

1214
00:55:22,030 --> 00:55:19,400
how to spot justice work because they

1215
00:55:23,770 --> 00:55:22,040
had a live alien in 1947 that's how the

1216
00:55:25,780 --> 00:55:23,780
Americans knew to tell the Canadians in

1217
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:25,790
1950 the mental phenomena was involved

1218
00:55:29,890 --> 00:55:28,160
nobody was talking to aliens in 1950 the

1219
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:29,900
Adamski and Williamson would not come

1220
00:55:33,580 --> 00:55:31,250
forward until a couple days after the

1221
00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:33,590
definition bhai drew Baum Betty and

1222
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:34,910
Barney Hill would not become public for

1223
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:35,570
a mid-60s

1224
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:37,250
nobody said they're talking to aliens in

1225
00:55:41,170 --> 00:55:39,650
public at least and so therefore how did

1226
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:41,180
they know that mental phenomena is

1227
00:55:42,910 --> 00:55:41,570
involved

1228
00:55:44,890 --> 00:55:42,920
because they had a lie villain and they

1229
00:55:46,750 --> 00:55:44,900
knew that the alien talked is telepathic

1230
00:55:48,370 --> 00:55:46,760
and gets in your head and they went wow

1231
00:55:50,410 --> 00:55:48,380
man if we could discover how this work

1232
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:50,420
and so of course they threw every dime

1233
00:55:53,620 --> 00:55:52,250
they had at consciousness trying to

1234
00:56:00,580 --> 00:55:53,630
figure out how this thing worked because

1235
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:00,590
if you okay he just threw the whole ball

1236
00:56:05,950 --> 00:56:03,290
of wax there I just want people to know

1237
00:56:07,660 --> 00:56:05,960
cuz I've investigated this you know and

1238
00:56:10,030 --> 00:56:07,670
we say conspiracy theory because that's

1239
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:10,040
what we weren't taught to say no this is

1240
00:56:14,620 --> 00:56:12,650
just true I mean Wilbert Smith is the

1241
00:56:17,890 --> 00:56:14,630
Canadian at the highest level in the

1242
00:56:21,220 --> 00:56:17,900
government whose memo he didn't disclose

1243
00:56:23,380 --> 00:56:21,230
the top secret memo it was revealed in a

1244
00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:23,390
Freedom of Information Act where he said

1245
00:56:28,270 --> 00:56:25,910
here I've gone to the United States I've

1246
00:56:29,980 --> 00:56:28,280
met with these top level people Vande of

1247
00:56:32,770 --> 00:56:29,990
our Bush he names the names because it's

1248
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:32,780
a secret memo and he said their highest

1249
00:56:38,050 --> 00:56:36,530
priority is this UFO thing and they've

1250
00:56:40,060 --> 00:56:38,060
come to understand there's a mental

1251
00:56:44,230 --> 00:56:40,070
phenomenon associated with it I mean all

1252
00:56:47,290 --> 00:56:44,240
this stuff is not conspiracy it's just

1253
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:47,300
fact it's the way it is in terms of MK

1254
00:56:52,450 --> 00:56:50,330
ULTRA and remote viewing it is just like

1255
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:52,460
he said just like I said a minute ago we

1256
00:56:59,290 --> 00:56:55,730
can only conclude that that was a direct

1257
00:57:00,910 --> 00:56:59,300
response to our government saying hey we

1258
00:57:02,860 --> 00:57:00,920
got to get on this consciousness thing

1259
00:57:06,810 --> 00:57:02,870
this is where things are really

1260
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:06,820
happening so isn't it interesting that

1261
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:09,410
here grant Cameron is saying you know

1262
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:10,160
isn't there what do you say

1263
00:57:17,650 --> 00:57:11,650
consciousness is fundamental

1264
00:57:21,790 --> 00:57:17,660
the longest time where does this take us

1265
00:57:23,860 --> 00:57:21,800
in terms of the technology that might be

1266
00:57:27,220 --> 00:57:23,870
associated with this the deeper

1267
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:27,230
understanding in in science you know

1268
00:57:32,050 --> 00:57:28,370
we're talking philosophy and all this

1269
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:32,060
what might they know that we don't know

1270
00:57:35,350 --> 00:57:34,130
in terms of manipulating this at a

1271
00:57:36,070 --> 00:57:35,360
different level from a different

1272
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:36,080
perspective

1273
00:57:45,970 --> 00:57:42,310
any thoughts on any of that my my

1274
00:57:49,690 --> 00:57:45,980
tendency would be to you know people who

1275
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:49,700
deal with the national security they

1276
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:52,250
tend to be very pragmatic people right I

1277
00:57:58,640 --> 00:57:55,200
think it's less a matter of the

1278
00:58:01,160 --> 00:57:58,650
knowing that idealism is true then they

1279
00:58:02,510 --> 00:58:01,170
not knowing that physicalism is true in

1280
00:58:04,250 --> 00:58:02,520
other words they don't make that bet

1281
00:58:06,319 --> 00:58:04,260
they are not married to any specific

1282
00:58:08,540 --> 00:58:06,329
philosophy any specific ontology for

1283
00:58:10,730 --> 00:58:08,550
them what matter is what works what is

1284
00:58:12,170 --> 00:58:10,740
effective and they are open to all

1285
00:58:14,780 --> 00:58:12,180
possibilities they are not going to

1286
00:58:17,470 --> 00:58:14,790
restrict themselves based on a

1287
00:58:19,940 --> 00:58:17,480
materialism mad materialistic belief

1288
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:19,950
because the other side may not be

1289
00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:21,690
imposing on themselves that restriction

1290
00:58:27,170 --> 00:58:24,510
and and and make progress and be in and

1291
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:27,180
be ahead and that they cannot take that

1292
00:58:34,430 --> 00:58:30,720
that risk so they have to be open

1293
00:58:37,609 --> 00:58:34,440
meaning that openness they indeed may

1294
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:37,619
make advances that ordinary science

1295
00:58:41,839 --> 00:58:39,570
wouldn't make because in academia well

1296
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:41,849
of course you know physicalism must be

1297
00:58:46,220 --> 00:58:44,210
true so why are we going to research

1298
00:58:47,839 --> 00:58:46,230
remote-viewing why are we going to

1299
00:58:50,210 --> 00:58:47,849
research this and death I mean we know

1300
00:58:52,339 --> 00:58:50,220
that it cannot happen so we're not going

1301
00:58:55,069 --> 00:58:52,349
to get a grant anyway so why bother and

1302
00:58:56,930 --> 00:58:55,079
and these guys are not restricted in

1303
00:58:58,910 --> 00:58:56,940
that way they have the money and they

1304
00:59:00,980 --> 00:58:58,920
cannot marry themselves to a certain

1305
00:59:02,599 --> 00:59:00,990
belief without being absolutely sure

1306
00:59:05,059 --> 00:59:02,609
that it's true and nobody can be sure

1307
00:59:07,970 --> 00:59:05,069
that materialism is true so I think it's

1308
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:07,980
less a matter of really knowing what's

1309
00:59:14,359 --> 00:59:10,319
going on and it's more more a matter of

1310
00:59:17,750 --> 00:59:14,369
being pragmatic and and and not closing

1311
00:59:20,809 --> 00:59:17,760
doors and just exploring now if that did

1312
00:59:23,089 --> 00:59:20,819
happen for it has been happening for

1313
00:59:25,940 --> 00:59:23,099
decades if they have not been imposing

1314
00:59:28,190 --> 00:59:25,950
on themselves the limitations that no

1315
00:59:31,010 --> 00:59:28,200
mainstream academia academia does impose

1316
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:31,020
on itself then who knows where they

1317
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:35,130
might be yeah yeah that's that's

1318
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:38,760
something to ponder because the other

1319
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:41,310
side of this that you touched on there

1320
00:59:45,260 --> 00:59:43,770
and I'm gonna see if I can pull anything

1321
00:59:49,690 --> 00:59:45,270
else out of you or any other thoughts

1322
00:59:53,630 --> 00:59:49,700
that you had is might we be able to

1323
00:59:57,770 --> 00:59:53,640
engineer you're an engineer as well as a

1324
01:00:00,559 --> 00:59:57,780
philosopher as well as a thinker might

1325
01:00:04,549 --> 01:00:00,569
we be able to engineer some of these

1326
01:00:06,469 --> 01:00:04,559
aspects of consciousness that we haven't

1327
01:00:08,749 --> 01:00:06,479
looked at engineering because we've had

1328
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:08,759
our our model wrong you know absolutely

1329
01:00:15,349 --> 01:00:13,170
categorically yes tomato some of your

1330
01:00:17,089 --> 01:00:15,359
thoughts and in terms of what what might

1331
01:00:19,099 --> 01:00:17,099
happen could happen where could that

1332
01:00:21,709 --> 01:00:19,109
work at that lead it's not just in the

1333
01:00:24,949 --> 01:00:21,719
the dorky telepathy mind-reading stuff

1334
01:00:29,329 --> 01:00:24,959
but in terms of in terms of time travel

1335
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:29,339
in terms of a massive kind of

1336
01:00:32,539 --> 01:00:31,650
communication with other worlds other

1337
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:32,549
realms

1338
01:00:36,979 --> 01:00:35,729
it just is almost limitless in terms of

1339
01:00:44,660 --> 01:00:36,989
where that could go

1340
01:00:47,839 --> 01:00:44,670
in its potential you lift concrete

1341
01:00:50,989 --> 01:00:47,849
applications where this could bring us

1342
01:00:53,929 --> 01:00:50,999
is two spaces that wouldn't even fit

1343
01:00:57,199 --> 01:00:53,939
this category of concrete applications

1344
01:00:59,749 --> 01:00:57,209
the realm of insights that would render

1345
01:01:01,120 --> 01:00:59,759
these applications almost like child's

1346
01:01:04,519 --> 01:01:01,130
play

1347
01:01:07,729 --> 01:01:04,529
so it I mean the space when it's opening

1348
01:01:10,429 --> 01:01:07,739
here is broader than our the implicit

1349
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:10,439
philosophy of language allows us to to

1350
01:01:18,229 --> 01:01:13,170
see and contemplate verbally even if

1351
01:01:19,549 --> 01:01:18,239
it's inside our heads I published my

1352
01:01:23,390 --> 01:01:19,559
first article in Scientific American

1353
01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:23,400
last year was about these this

1354
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:26,609
correlation between deep transcendent

1355
01:01:31,370 --> 01:01:29,130
insight transpersonal experience and

1356
01:01:33,709 --> 01:01:31,380
reduced brain activity and you see that

1357
01:01:35,239 --> 01:01:33,719
correlates there's a pattern correlating

1358
01:01:37,279 --> 01:01:35,249
these two things it's very widespread

1359
01:01:41,150 --> 01:01:37,289
it's not only psychedelics that have

1360
01:01:43,489 --> 01:01:41,160
been shown since 2012 I ask you to break

1361
01:01:45,559 --> 01:01:43,499
that down a little bit for folks break

1362
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:45,569
it down in terms of specific examples

1363
01:01:49,669 --> 01:01:47,910
that okay touch and feel because this is

1364
01:01:53,029 --> 01:01:49,679
the deep spirituality part that we want

1365
01:01:55,819 --> 01:01:53,039
to talk about in a way yeah many things

1366
01:02:00,620 --> 01:01:55,829
that people associate with deep in

1367
01:02:02,209 --> 01:02:00,630
spirit deep spiritual insight come

1368
01:02:05,599 --> 01:02:02,219
together with a reduction in brain

1369
01:02:09,679 --> 01:02:05,609
activity and we have known this mostly

1370
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:09,689
recently for instance there are some

1371
01:02:14,490 --> 01:02:11,910
breathing techniques you breathe very

1372
01:02:16,349 --> 01:02:14,500
fast some yogic techniques

1373
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:16,359
and what that does it increases the

1374
01:02:20,550 --> 01:02:18,550
alkalinity level of your blood causes

1375
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:20,560
constriction of blood vessels in your

1376
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:23,200
brain metabolism reduces in your brain

1377
01:02:25,950 --> 01:02:24,730
to the point that you may pass out if

1378
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:25,960
you breathe too fast

1379
01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:27,280
that's why when people are

1380
01:02:32,220 --> 01:02:28,750
hyperventilating they breathe in a bag

1381
01:02:34,740 --> 01:02:32,230
to reduce oxygen intake so there is a

1382
01:02:36,839 --> 01:02:34,750
reduction in brain activity associated

1383
01:02:38,550 --> 01:02:36,849
with those yogic practices that are

1384
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:38,560
supposed to lead you to greater insight

1385
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:43,599
or teenagers worldwide play this is very

1386
01:02:49,140 --> 01:02:45,760
dangerous a game called the choking game

1387
01:02:50,910 --> 01:02:49,150
they partly strangulate themselves to

1388
01:02:54,530 --> 01:02:50,920
the point of almost passing out and then

1389
01:02:57,330 --> 01:02:54,540
they have these transcendent experiences

1390
01:03:01,740 --> 01:02:57,340
that are considered very pleasurable or

1391
01:03:04,140 --> 01:03:01,750
very cool whatever we know for instance

1392
01:03:06,750 --> 01:03:04,150
for the past few years that's what

1393
01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:06,760
psychedelics do they don't light up your

1394
01:03:11,790 --> 01:03:07,240
brain

1395
01:03:14,130 --> 01:03:11,800
activity we have known that since 2012

1396
01:03:16,109 --> 01:03:14,140
it has been confirmed multiple times now

1397
01:03:18,270 --> 01:03:16,119
the last paper published by the

1398
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:18,280
University of Zurich was published late

1399
01:03:22,859 --> 01:03:20,710
last year tell people about that paper

1400
01:03:25,109 --> 01:03:22,869
if you would or the paper that they had

1401
01:03:26,670 --> 01:03:25,119
not published a few years prior what

1402
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:26,680
they did because I think it's just

1403
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:30,010
that'll just case closed folks there are

1404
01:03:33,359 --> 01:03:31,599
there are several papers published by

1405
01:03:39,570 --> 01:03:33,369
the Imperial College the group of David

1406
01:03:41,849 --> 01:03:39,580
Nutt they basically take subjects they

1407
01:03:44,010 --> 01:03:41,859
measure their brain activity in an fMRI

1408
01:03:46,349 --> 01:03:44,020
brain scanner that's the baseline brain

1409
01:03:48,270 --> 01:03:46,359
activity they inject folks with a

1410
01:03:53,430 --> 01:03:48,280
psychedelic substance it could be

1411
01:03:54,750 --> 01:03:53,440
psilocybin or DMT or LSD and they

1412
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:54,760
continue to measure the brain activity

1413
01:03:59,040 --> 01:03:57,250
as the substance takes effect and then

1414
01:04:01,530 --> 01:03:59,050
they ask people to report on their

1415
01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:01,540
experiences as their brain activity is

1416
01:04:06,660 --> 01:04:03,910
being monitored so they can correlate

1417
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:06,670
the original baseline with the drug

1418
01:04:11,670 --> 01:04:09,010
taking effect with the subjective

1419
01:04:13,380 --> 01:04:11,680
reports of the subjects describing the

1420
01:04:16,670 --> 01:04:13,390
intensity and the richness of their

1421
01:04:19,380 --> 01:04:16,680
experience and what they found is that

1422
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:19,390
the richer and more intense the

1423
01:04:25,079 --> 01:04:22,450
experience they report the lower is the

1424
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:25,089
brain activity that's measured to the

1425
01:04:27,810 --> 01:04:27,490
point that one can predict the other you

1426
01:04:30,030 --> 01:04:27,820
can

1427
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:30,040
predict how much lower brain activity is

1428
01:04:34,590 --> 01:04:32,770
based on how rich and intense the report

1429
01:04:38,220 --> 01:04:34,600
of the experiences and this is really

1430
01:04:41,550 --> 01:04:38,230
basic but why is that a surprise what

1431
01:04:45,030 --> 01:04:41,560
does that fMRI normally look like when

1432
01:04:48,180 --> 01:04:45,040
we're super excited super thinking all

1433
01:04:50,700 --> 01:04:48,190
that well if there have alpha being in a

1434
01:04:53,220 --> 01:04:50,710
neural imaging study a few years ago

1435
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:53,230
done in Japan they put people having

1436
01:05:00,240 --> 01:04:56,290
dreams inside an fMRI and it turns out

1437
01:05:04,380 --> 01:05:00,250
that even simple dream experiences like

1438
01:05:06,540 --> 01:05:04,390
a dreamer watching a statue leads to

1439
01:05:09,060 --> 01:05:06,550
identifiable activations in brain

1440
01:05:10,590 --> 01:05:09,070
activity brain activity goes up when you

1441
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:10,600
experience something to the point that

1442
01:05:14,550 --> 01:05:12,250
you can even predict what the experience

1443
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:14,560
was and with psychedelics which are

1444
01:05:18,810 --> 01:05:16,810
incredibly intense experiences the

1445
01:05:21,390 --> 01:05:18,820
opposite seems to happen which is

1446
01:05:24,510 --> 01:05:21,400
surprising because the before all of

1447
01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:24,520
this came up came out starting 2012 we

1448
01:05:27,810 --> 01:05:26,110
thought that psychedelics would light up

1449
01:05:30,630 --> 01:05:27,820
the brain like a Christmas tree because

1450
01:05:33,150 --> 01:05:30,640
under materialism experience is brain

1451
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:33,160
activity or at least generated by brain

1452
01:05:37,470 --> 01:05:34,930
activity so if you have a richer and

1453
01:05:40,590 --> 01:05:37,480
intense er experience you would expect

1454
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:40,600
more an intense er brain activity turns

1455
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:42,370
out that the opposite is what is

1456
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:44,650
observed in a psychedelic trance and

1457
01:05:48,390 --> 01:05:46,210
it's not only psychedelics I already

1458
01:05:51,060 --> 01:05:48,400
mentioned a cup of other examples there

1459
01:05:53,430 --> 01:05:51,070
has also been a study in Brazil of a

1460
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:53,440
spirit mediums which is a subject I know

1461
01:05:59,070 --> 01:05:55,330
you're interested in they took

1462
01:06:01,440 --> 01:05:59,080
experienced mediums who were willing to

1463
01:06:03,810 --> 01:06:01,450
do psychography in other words to write

1464
01:06:06,590 --> 01:06:03,820
down information that supposedly comes

1465
01:06:08,850 --> 01:06:06,600
from a transcendent source from another

1466
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:08,860
spiritual world whatever it is that the

1467
01:06:14,610 --> 01:06:12,450
claim is and they realized that

1468
01:06:17,700 --> 01:06:14,620
experienced mediums when their psycho

1469
01:06:20,790 --> 01:06:17,710
graphing brain activity in areas of the

1470
01:06:24,540 --> 01:06:20,800
brain involved with writing thinking and

1471
01:06:27,810 --> 01:06:24,550
writing is reduced and then they did

1472
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:27,820
controls they put these mediums without

1473
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:29,290
psychograph endured they asked them just

1474
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:31,690
to write text in the same brain scanner

1475
01:06:39,390 --> 01:06:36,640
and then the text they write scored

1476
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:39,400
lower in a measure of complexity than

1477
01:06:43,830 --> 01:06:41,200
the text they wrote while

1478
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:43,840
they were in a trance and it should have

1479
01:06:47,460 --> 01:06:45,370
been the opposite because in the trance

1480
01:06:50,670 --> 01:06:47,470
the areas that would activate for you to

1481
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:50,680
write complex texts complex texts were

1482
01:06:55,230 --> 01:06:53,170
were actually deactivated why are they

1483
01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:55,240
were in a trance so again you have this

1484
01:06:59,790 --> 01:06:57,430
correlation of richer more complex

1485
01:07:02,220 --> 01:06:59,800
experience associated with reduction of

1486
01:07:05,430 --> 01:07:02,230
brain activity in key cognitive regions

1487
01:07:07,230 --> 01:07:05,440
I could go on and on the in my

1488
01:07:09,060 --> 01:07:07,240
Scientific American article I think I

1489
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:09,070
mentioned ten different examples you

1490
01:07:15,300 --> 01:07:12,490
have brain damage correlates with

1491
01:07:19,350 --> 01:07:15,310
spiritual experience Vietnam War

1492
01:07:22,050 --> 01:07:19,360
veterans in a 2016 paper they found a

1493
01:07:24,110 --> 01:07:22,060
correlation between propensity toward

1494
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:24,120
spiritual experience and brain damage

1495
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:26,890
measured by also brain scans or there

1496
01:07:31,980 --> 01:07:29,170
was a 2010 study published in neuron

1497
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:31,990
carried out in Italy people were studied

1498
01:07:36,780 --> 01:07:34,690
before and after brain surgery for the

1499
01:07:38,370 --> 01:07:36,790
removal of tumors which always causes

1500
01:07:41,250 --> 01:07:38,380
some collateral damage when they remove

1501
01:07:43,170 --> 01:07:41,260
a tumor people were evaluated for

1502
01:07:46,230 --> 01:07:43,180
propensity towards trans the

1503
01:07:48,930 --> 01:07:46,240
transpersonal experience before and

1504
01:07:50,550 --> 01:07:48,940
after surgery and after surgery that

1505
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:50,560
increased there was more propensity

1506
01:07:55,530 --> 01:07:53,680
towards trans personal experience

1507
01:07:57,510 --> 01:07:55,540
spiritual experience so it's a very

1508
01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:57,520
consistent correlation so what I'm

1509
01:08:02,670 --> 01:08:00,880
trying to suggest here is that going

1510
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:02,680
back to a question about technologies of

1511
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:06,010
consciousness exploration if we had a

1512
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:11,440
technology to dampen activity with a

1513
01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:14,410
high degree of precision and resolution

1514
01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:19,630
and chosen brain areas we could very

1515
01:08:27,450 --> 01:08:24,640
systematically explore what people could

1516
01:08:29,790 --> 01:08:27,460
experience under conditions of reduced

1517
01:08:31,290 --> 01:08:29,800
brain activity if we could do that

1518
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:31,300
systematically in a way that doesn't

1519
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:34,090
depend on personal spiritual skill it

1520
01:08:37,410 --> 01:08:36,010
would it could potentially open many

1521
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:37,420
doors and you could do all kinds of

1522
01:08:42,150 --> 01:08:39,610
experiments is also about remote viewing

1523
01:08:45,270 --> 01:08:42,160
and telepathy under those conditions of

1524
01:08:47,610 --> 01:08:45,280
reduced brain activity I like the way

1525
01:08:50,220 --> 01:08:47,620
you very carefully walk through that

1526
01:08:52,110 --> 01:08:50,230
because as we've talked about before in

1527
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:52,120
this interview it's tricky you know you

1528
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:53,890
don't need the back door materialism

1529
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:54,970
thing comes in

1530
01:08:59,520 --> 01:08:57,250
but your I want to make sure people got

1531
01:09:03,020 --> 01:08:59,530
at that point what how I understood that

1532
01:09:07,290 --> 01:09:03,030
is to say that if we were able to

1533
01:09:09,510 --> 01:09:07,300
systematically arrange this brain that

1534
01:09:12,210 --> 01:09:09,520
we have because we know there is this

1535
01:09:14,310 --> 01:09:12,220
very close relationship between brain

1536
01:09:17,370 --> 01:09:14,320
and consciousness even though we don't

1537
01:09:18,830 --> 01:09:17,380
know exactly what consciousness is we do

1538
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:18,840
know that there's this relationship

1539
01:09:25,380 --> 01:09:21,850
maybe if we arrange the brain a certain

1540
01:09:26,910 --> 01:09:25,390
way we would be able to access again

1541
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:26,920
when we say other realms of

1542
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:29,050
consciousness it's just a placeholder

1543
01:09:34,050 --> 01:09:31,930
for something we don't understand but if

1544
01:09:36,690 --> 01:09:34,060
we observe these things happening like

1545
01:09:38,970 --> 01:09:36,700
you're saying we do because they are the

1546
01:09:40,650 --> 01:09:38,980
in the collective experience remote

1547
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:40,660
viewing is in the collective collective

1548
01:09:45,390 --> 01:09:42,880
experience medium communication is in

1549
01:09:48,030 --> 01:09:45,400
the collective experience alien contact

1550
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:48,040
is in the collective experience get over

1551
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:50,170
it folks it's just a reality too many

1552
01:09:54,300 --> 01:09:51,850
people are saying it it's too consistent

1553
01:09:56,180 --> 01:09:54,310
no matter how you ask him if all these

1554
01:09:59,520 --> 01:09:56,190
things are in the collective experience

1555
01:10:02,280 --> 01:09:59,530
you're saying hey why don't we take the

1556
01:10:05,220 --> 01:10:02,290
idea that if you turn down the knob on

1557
01:10:06,780 --> 01:10:05,230
the chatter in your brain and the brain

1558
01:10:10,260 --> 01:10:06,790
activity in a certain way

1559
01:10:12,810 --> 01:10:10,270
maybe you'll tune in to these different

1560
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:12,820
parts of consciousness and that is

1561
01:10:17,850 --> 01:10:16,330
correct and then but then we don't know

1562
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:17,860
the other part we're talking about is

1563
01:10:21,810 --> 01:10:20,410
from a deep spiritual perspective

1564
01:10:24,210 --> 01:10:21,820
whether that even matters

1565
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:24,220
or whether that's just another station

1566
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:26,770
along the road of getting to something

1567
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:29,650
that transcends yet that again that

1568
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,210
would be part of the experiment right I

1569
01:10:35,070 --> 01:10:33,760
mean maybe you send people off using

1570
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:35,080
these technologies that we are

1571
01:10:39,420 --> 01:10:37,930
fantasizing about here to to view what

1572
01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:39,430
the Russians are doing and they come

1573
01:10:43,170 --> 01:10:41,110
back with a laugh and say it doesn't

1574
01:10:45,570 --> 01:10:43,180
matter what the Russians are doing you

1575
01:10:47,670 --> 01:10:45,580
idiots you haven't figured out what's

1576
01:10:50,100 --> 01:10:47,680
going on yet maybe that's what what

1577
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:50,110
would happen we don't know but just to

1578
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:51,490
come back to a comment you made this

1579
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:53,410
backdoor materialism I I think it's a

1580
01:10:58,080 --> 01:10:55,570
good point and I think we should maybe

1581
01:11:02,270 --> 01:10:58,090
explore this a bit if I have a minute or

1582
01:11:04,650 --> 01:11:02,280
so to discuss this Alex you see

1583
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:04,660
independent of ontology and philosophy

1584
01:11:08,460 --> 01:11:06,250
independent of our interpretation of

1585
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:08,470
what might be going on it is a fact

1586
01:11:13,350 --> 01:11:10,810
that if you interfere with brain

1587
01:11:16,020 --> 01:11:13,360
activity experience is affected just

1588
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:16,030
drink a beer and you see that first hand

1589
01:11:20,580 --> 01:11:18,130
you put alcohol in your brain - physical

1590
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:20,590
substance goes in there and your your

1591
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:22,960
experience of the world will change if

1592
01:11:26,970 --> 01:11:25,690
you're shot in the head things things

1593
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:26,980
that look very different from a

1594
01:11:30,690 --> 01:11:28,810
first-person perspective so that

1595
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:30,700
relationship is an empirical fact the

1596
01:11:35,610 --> 01:11:32,890
question is how do we interpret that and

1597
01:11:38,310 --> 01:11:35,620
what I'm saying is that the brain is not

1598
01:11:40,650 --> 01:11:38,320
an object independent and outside of

1599
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:40,660
consciousness which in turn generates

1600
01:11:44,670 --> 01:11:42,730
consciousness no what I'm saying is that

1601
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:44,680
the brain is the image of a certain

1602
01:11:49,950 --> 01:11:47,410
process in consciousness and that

1603
01:11:51,570 --> 01:11:49,960
process is a dissociative process so the

1604
01:11:54,630 --> 01:11:51,580
brain is the image of a dissociation

1605
01:11:57,450 --> 01:11:54,640
normal brain activity is what you see

1606
01:11:59,940 --> 01:11:57,460
when Universal consciousness is

1607
01:12:01,680 --> 01:11:59,950
undergoing a dissociative process when

1608
01:12:03,690 --> 01:12:01,690
you put people with dissociation in a

1609
01:12:06,660 --> 01:12:03,700
brain scanner dissociative processes

1610
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:06,670
show up in the scan that there is

1611
01:12:11,540 --> 01:12:09,130
something they look like and they can be

1612
01:12:15,660 --> 01:12:11,550
identified that's a Dutch study done in

1613
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:15,670
2014 by Yolanda schlump and others there

1614
01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:17,890
is something dissociative processes look

1615
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:21,510
like now my claim is that a brain is

1616
01:12:26,430 --> 01:12:24,610
that it is the image of cosmic

1617
01:12:28,140 --> 01:12:26,440
dissociation if you want it looks like

1618
01:12:30,900 --> 01:12:28,150
something and what it looks like is a

1619
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:30,910
brain with normal brain activity so if

1620
01:12:37,140 --> 01:12:33,610
if normal brain activity is the image of

1621
01:12:40,370 --> 01:12:37,150
dissociation what is reduced brain

1622
01:12:43,380 --> 01:12:40,380
activity it's the image of reduced

1623
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:43,390
dissociation and reduced dissociation

1624
01:12:47,820 --> 01:12:45,850
allows you to reach beyond the confines

1625
01:12:50,370 --> 01:12:47,830
of your personal self because it's

1626
01:12:53,940 --> 01:12:50,380
dissociation that defines those confines

1627
01:12:56,190 --> 01:12:53,950
it's dissociation that puts you in the

1628
01:12:58,320 --> 01:12:56,200
cage of the personal self if you reduce

1629
01:13:00,900 --> 01:12:58,330
dissociation you can peek out the window

1630
01:13:03,390 --> 01:13:00,910
you can go beyond the cage at least for

1631
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:03,400
some time for temporarily and peek

1632
01:13:07,770 --> 01:13:05,170
around and see what's going on and

1633
01:13:10,950 --> 01:13:07,780
that's my point now that that can be

1634
01:13:13,380 --> 01:13:10,960
induced by so-called physical means it's

1635
01:13:15,480 --> 01:13:13,390
entirely coherent with idealism because

1636
01:13:17,700 --> 01:13:15,490
you see under idealism what we call

1637
01:13:21,810 --> 01:13:17,710
physical is a modality of experience

1638
01:13:24,660 --> 01:13:21,820
it's perception so a

1639
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:24,670
- that shoots a.m. radiation in your

1640
01:13:29,490 --> 01:13:27,610
brain to disrupt the neuron firings and

1641
01:13:33,480 --> 01:13:29,500
reduce brain activity that physical

1642
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:33,490
process is the image of a mental process

1643
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:35,770
going on in nature that disrupts the

1644
01:13:40,470 --> 01:13:37,690
dissociative boundary that the mental

1645
01:13:42,330 --> 01:13:40,480
process disrupts another is trivial your

1646
01:13:44,100 --> 01:13:42,340
thoughts disrupt your emotions everyday

1647
01:13:46,170 --> 01:13:44,110
or the other way around your emotions

1648
01:13:48,390 --> 01:13:46,180
disrupt your thoughts that one mental

1649
01:13:50,340 --> 01:13:48,400
process can disrupt another is no

1650
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:50,350
problem and what we call physical under

1651
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:52,570
idealism is a kind of mental process

1652
01:13:57,360 --> 01:13:55,360
that you can use to disrupt dissociation

1653
01:14:00,510 --> 01:13:57,370
so it this is not materialism via the

1654
01:14:04,140 --> 01:14:00,520
back door actually the whole point is

1655
01:14:05,910 --> 01:14:04,150
precisely that by reducing during

1656
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:05,920
activity you allow information to come

1657
01:14:10,140 --> 01:14:07,810
from beyond personal boundaries which

1658
01:14:14,940 --> 01:14:10,150
would be considered impossible under

1659
01:14:17,340 --> 01:14:14,950
materialism well now you see what I was

1660
01:14:19,020 --> 01:14:17,350
talking about at the beginning why I

1661
01:14:22,140 --> 01:14:19,030
love this guy

1662
01:14:25,230 --> 01:14:22,150
why dr. bernardo caster is absolutely

1663
01:14:26,340 --> 01:14:25,240
one of my favorite guests on sceptical

1664
01:14:28,110 --> 01:14:26,350
and I have to tell you I know he's one

1665
01:14:30,980 --> 01:14:28,120
of yours - one of the most shared

1666
01:14:34,350 --> 01:14:30,990
interviews always is

1667
01:14:36,270 --> 01:14:34,360
Bernardo's appearance on here so we've

1668
01:14:39,810 --> 01:14:36,280
we've put you through the wringer

1669
01:14:42,420 --> 01:14:39,820
I appreciate you playing along I brought

1670
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:42,430
up on the screen some Barnardo's books

1671
01:14:45,660 --> 01:14:43,930
you're definitely gonna want to check

1672
01:14:50,010 --> 01:14:45,670
those out if you haven't before

1673
01:14:52,020 --> 01:14:50,020
they're so tremendously accessible and

1674
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:52,030
at the same time intellectually

1675
01:14:57,720 --> 01:14:54,640
stimulating you have to read them - see

1676
01:14:59,850 --> 01:14:57,730
what I mean go on Amazon do the peek

1677
01:15:02,250 --> 01:14:59,860
inside thing and I think you'll see what

1678
01:15:04,620 --> 01:15:02,260
I mean - check them out and then we did

1679
01:15:06,270 --> 01:15:04,630
talk about his articles in Scientific

1680
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:06,280
American so you can check those out -

1681
01:15:11,070 --> 01:15:08,410
what else should people be on the

1682
01:15:12,630 --> 01:15:11,080
lookout for Bernardo in terms of what's

1683
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:12,640
coming up for you you did mention you

1684
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:14,530
have a new book right coming maybe there

1685
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:16,570
will be a new book coming out later this

1686
01:15:21,060 --> 01:15:19,210
year to be a collection of academic

1687
01:15:24,540 --> 01:15:21,070
papers that have published recently but

1688
01:15:27,270 --> 01:15:24,550
not only the papers also I tried to

1689
01:15:29,700 --> 01:15:27,280
weave a story around those papers to

1690
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:29,710
construct a coherent storyline with one

1691
01:15:34,950 --> 01:15:32,890
message that sort of elaborate upon

1692
01:15:40,140 --> 01:15:34,960
throughout the book

1693
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:40,150
it's my it's my most academic book to

1694
01:15:48,169 --> 01:15:45,730
date it aims at addressing some critic

1695
01:15:51,500 --> 01:15:48,179
critiques I received before that I

1696
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:51,510
despite what your your viewership might

1697
01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:54,730
might think some academics have accused

1698
01:15:59,010 --> 01:15:57,610
me of not being rigorous enough to

1699
01:16:02,129 --> 01:15:59,020
address that and this year a very

1700
01:16:05,129 --> 01:16:02,139
rigorous books coming out what about

1701
01:16:07,290 --> 01:16:05,139
personal appearances I know you've done

1702
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:07,300
the science and non-duality conference

1703
01:16:12,419 --> 01:16:10,000
in the past do you have any other places

1704
01:16:15,180 --> 01:16:12,429
where people might come and see or

1705
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:15,190
listen to you any that on the schedule I

1706
01:16:19,470 --> 01:16:17,770
will be in New York in March I don't

1707
01:16:21,330 --> 01:16:19,480
have the details yet but as soon as I

1708
01:16:24,510 --> 01:16:21,340
have it I'll put it up on my website or

1709
01:16:26,189 --> 01:16:24,520
Facebook there will be an event mostly

1710
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:26,199
medical event in New York but I have

1711
01:16:33,030 --> 01:16:28,690
been invited than a wife and but I will

1712
01:16:36,060 --> 01:16:33,040
be there and whenever things come up I

1713
01:16:37,740 --> 01:16:36,070
will just post it online I I don't have

1714
01:16:40,260 --> 01:16:37,750
I'm not planned out for the whole year

1715
01:16:44,220 --> 01:16:40,270
there are some tentative things after

1716
01:16:46,470 --> 01:16:44,230
the summer but I can't say it yet great

1717
01:16:49,950 --> 01:16:46,480
great but we'll look for all of that and

1718
01:16:51,899 --> 01:16:49,960
it's been so great reconnecting with you

1719
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:51,909
talking to you is always so much fun and

1720
01:16:57,209 --> 01:16:54,250
I think we hit on some great stuff here

1721
01:16:59,280 --> 01:16:57,219
today so Bernardo thank you so much for

1722
01:17:01,530 --> 01:16:59,290
joining me on skeptic a just great Alex

1723
01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:01,540
it's always great to talk to you so

1724
01:17:05,189 --> 01:17:03,310
thanks for watching this video if it

1725
01:17:07,770 --> 01:17:05,199
wasn't really a video but just an audio

1726
01:17:09,330 --> 01:17:07,780
stored as a video well I apologize but

1727
01:17:11,310 --> 01:17:09,340
there's more videos out there as well

1728
01:17:13,140 --> 01:17:11,320
but please check out the Skeptical

1729
01:17:14,490 --> 01:17:13,150
website you can see it here we cover a

1730
01:17:17,310 --> 01:17:14,500
lot of different stuff you might be

1731
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:17,320
interested in relating to controversial

1732
01:17:23,370 --> 01:17:20,650
science and spirituality a lot of shows

1733
01:17:26,189 --> 01:17:23,380
up there over 350 of them are so all

1734
01:17:28,510 --> 01:17:26,199
free all available for downloads so do